Richard - This bit from your post about knowing when anger will be a useful and successful reaction is really important. Thank you for that. I would say, it’s true of other emotions and heretical ideas too. Have you considered expanding upon this as a more general concept to include other emotions and heresies? Or maybe you’ve already written on it somewhere?
“But there’s a psychological story we can tell here, in which people get angry when doing so is useful. If someone who is about the same size as you comes and slaps you in the face, you might get mad and hit him back. If he is a professional boxer, there’s a good chance that you’ll know better than to even get angry in the first place. Anger requires both grievance and some hope of taking action to change your situation for the better. When there’s no hope, it either never forms or dissipates.”
The trouble is that the "professional boxers" analogized in the piece - Assad's Syria and Xi's China, are (rightly) treated as barbaric pariahs in military and diplomatic terms by the United States.
Could Israel successfully execute the "Lose Hope" strategy if given a comparable cold shoulder by the US? Many seem to fear that they couldn't.
Ah yes, Assad is a barbaric pariah. But the US is a wonderful angel when they are illegally occupying his country, stealing his oil that could be used to rebuild it, and sanctioning it to hurt it even further. Idiots like you are amazing.
Nice job keeping your cool when the above individual glossed over Assad/Syria’s treatment of their own citizens and role in the conflict and called you an idiot. Respect.
I don’t know much about their situation to make an informed comment, but I will say, that for me, I enjoy purity in certain areas of my life, and I’m willing to go to great lengths to obtain peace of mind. This style isn’t for everyone. What are they willing to pay for tranquility? I’m not sure, but I know what I would do.
There is another aspect to your argument which further bolsters it, and that is the point of "usefulness."
Almost since the start of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, each side was seen as essentially useless to other countries aside from the "only democracy in the Middle East" crowd. However, that is no longer the case as Israel's technology sector out punches it's weight by several magnitudes.
In 2022, Israeli technology start-ups raised $9.3B in VC funding, with a population of 9.4M, which means ~$993 in VC dollars per person.
In comparison the US raised ~$726 per person ($241B on a 332M population) while Western Europe raised an abysmal $296 per person ($101B on a 342M population).
All this means that Israel is an incredibly important strategic partner, and increasingly so. This goes for both the US (who needs to keep Israeli technology out of the hands of their geopolitical rivals) and poorly diversified countries, like Saudi Arabia, who need to ingratiate themselves into the Israeli technology sector to stop their slide into obscurity (and civil uprising) as the need for oil declines in the coming years.
This adds up to an international community who will start to be more tolerant of Israel's handling of the Palestinian issue, as their "usefulness" continues to rapidly diverge from the Palestinians lack thereof.
We will wreck your economy; bleed Israel by a thousand cuts, from the north, from the south, from the east and from the west. You can't sustain a reserve force of 18-21 yrs old for so long.
It sure doesn't seem like anyone has the appetite for this. Who will do it? After this?
Iran? Hezbollah? They don't want war, they are both in fragile states as it is. Lebanon is a total mess. Iran is the least stable it has been since the Iran/Iraq war. Are they really going to risk an open conflict? I don't see it.
I believe you are framing the situation in terms that are too Western to provide useful insights. The desire for revenge might well afflict the average Palestinian. But the real issue here is jihad. The jihadist is not simply motivated by revenge. They occupy a dissociated mental state where they believe Allah is directing them to destroy local infidels for a heavenly reward. In Western terms, this would be considered a form of mass psychosis. The likelihood of Israel remaining a middle Eastern state likely depends mostly on the number of jihadists in the area. If it hits 100k plus, it's gonna get hard.
Hi, muslim here. Jihad most certainly does NOT mean "destroy local infidels".
Jihad literally means to "struggle", i.e. struggle against evil, and in the cause of good. Fighting your own urges is a form of jihad.
In the context of battle it refers to defensive actions - i.e. if your people are facing a threat.
And even then, there are strict rulings on warfare (do not kill innocents, do not harm trees, etc)
"Fight against them ˹if they persecute you˺ until there is no more persecution, and ˹your˺ devotion will be to Allah ˹alone˺. If they stop ˹persecuting you˺, let there be no hostility except against the aggressors." (Quran, 2:193)
It's true that I made a joke. But you were not giving much of an argument, as I see it. You were giving me like the Islamic Wikipedia definition of jihad. I'm looking more at the actual behaviour and psychological state.
It's true many extremists use concepts of jihad to justify all sorts of evil actions. This is unfortunate and wrong.
Though I would implore you to watch some documentaries or books that give a glimpse of the Palestinian perspective and what their quality of living is like.
And then ask yourself honestly:
1) do they fundamentally hate jews no matter what because that's what they're taught?
OR
2) they're angry because they've faced such violent persecution for so long, and need to find some religious justification for acts of revenge.
You would find, in 99% of cases, it is the latter. Just read about the founders of hamas and what they went through as children. In fact, 85% of hamas are orphans... I wonder how they became orphans.. or if that has anything to do with their psychology.
My larger point is this:
If you let the Palestinians have proper freedom, with well-defined borders, their own government, airport, seaport, security, etc etc. You will find most of them would accept this, and over time they would become less hateful. There is nothing in Islam that should breed a desire to "destroy local infidels". To say the opposite is to dehumanize an entire population and completely misunderstand the psychology.
If hamas (and radical Islam in general) is a virus, then we should treat the patient (Palestinians) with care, and over time the natural immune system will take care of it.
I agree that that would be an intelligent way forward for the majority of Israelis. But I actually think the hidden agenda is Al-Aqsa. It seems like the Israeli hard right want the Mount back for their third temple. They see Oct 7th as an oppo, whilst the average Israeli is in total shock, to make Gaza uninhabitable, clear the West Bank, and to thus establish greater Israel.
Forgive me, I don't know that much about Islam. But I once read somewhere that there are different interpretations of the Quran. The one you are presenting here was described as that of moderate Muslims, whereas the extremists supposedly believe that they have an obligation to murder all men who are either persecuting them or inhabiting lands once held by Muslims. The article claimed that unfortunately, the more extreme version is much more prevalent.
Physical location Turkey, huh? You should be careful about your words buddy, some brothers from the Islamic network might want to come pay you a visit.
I will explain it to you in simple terms. The policy of the Iran is to bleed Israel by a 1000 cuts, a ditto copy of the military doctrine of Pakistan against India. You simply can not win this war in the long term ; right now all of the Muslim world hates Israel now ; from fucking Indonesia to Northern Africa. Maybe you will kill 1/4th of the Gazan population, but mind you there are 2 billion Muslims in the world. As of now, there are millions of Muslims who are absolutely seething for revenge. Your transgressions only emboldens them.
They will attack you from the East, from the West, from the South, from the north. A country like Israel can only be in a war like this for so long before the strength of it's young men is spent, economy ruined etc. It is war of attrition, and you can not win against Muslims in this.
Btw, as soon as US withdraws its military support, it is a matter of time some rogue Pakistan army general will leak nukes to Iran and other Arab countries, or nuke israel on it's own. This is the radius of Pakistan's Shaheen 3 nuclear missiles btw : covers all of Israel, and your defense system can't capture it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaheen-III#/media/File:Shaheen-III-missile-range.svg
I can't honestly believe this-- that antisemitism runs so strong and deep in Muslims that they themselves are willing to give a hoot about a distant country of Jews, wasting energy and resources while the biggest threat to Muslims is the autocratic regimes in their own country's and the inability of Muslim thought to enter the world of modernity. In fact, I think the Iranian mullahs use the Jews and Israel as a scapegoat and excuse to oppress their own people.
It is important to note that Muslims do not hate Jews in particular; jews thrived relatively in Muslim lands(compared to what Europeans were doing). Islam even allowed Jews to implement their own laws in Medina, as opposed to Islamic law. If Muslims really wanted to genocide jews, it would have been long done centuries ago - our empires stretched from Iberian Peninsula to India. Our dislike for jews is based on their oppression of Palestinians, desecration of the Al Aqsa mosque, and their general attitude of backstabbing muslims.
You misunderstand things. "Threats to Muslims" in number, consequence or duration have no importance whatsoever. However, any threat to Islam must be countered immediately and with selfless devotion by all Muslims.
Yes, on a purely memetic level, İslam is kinda fascinating in this aspect. It has this way of defending itself from threat. Under certain forms of psychological triggering, some young male believers will enter a psychotic state where all their emotional energy is channelled up into their head and they will willingly die or kill for the Islamic cause. No other religion has such a protection.
This is why it looks to me like Israel will lose over the longer term. Killing Muslims leads to more jihadists and they can just slowly grind the Israelis down over time, in a religious attritional war. I'm actually surprised that the Israeli right haven't wised up to this.
Your take is correct. A threat to Islam is a much greater threat than threat to muslims, although they often overlap.
Westerners accuse Muslims of being hypocrites on China's oppression of Muslims in Ughir. However, it is important to note that in this case Ughiurs are being oppressed because China oppresses all state religions and is just an authoritarian country overall , and other minorities, not because it hates Islam in particular.
Other Muslim countries have no desire to even take in Palestinian refugees, much less fight wars for them.
Jordan took in thousands of Palestinians, and one of them assassinated King Abdullah. Lebanon, at one time a majority Christian country, took in thousands of Palestinians, and their country is now a wasteland of corpses and rubble. Egypt's military dictatorship has no desire to deal with millions of aggrieved Palestinians, and the Saudis have no desire to offend an ally. Iran alone seems to support them, but is a Shia nation with immense dislike for Sunnis. Pakistan is politically divided, barely stable, and terrified of its huge neighbor to the east.
In short, no Muslim majority nation has good reasons to attack Israel, and most assume, correctly, that an attack on Israel would provoke reprisals from the Americans, which would be merciless. The late Hussein family, Moamar Gaddafi, and the bin Ladins would, if they could, agree.
There are a lot of Muslims, and a lot of Muslim countries. Few want to walk into a bloodbath, excepting possibly Iran, but even the Iranians aren't suicidal.
You aware of the Iran Iraq War, the Gulf War (where Iraq invaded Kuwait, the current war in Yemen, and the civil war in Syria. What if your genocidal wish were granted and Israel "went" but there was still not peace in the Middle East? What then?
Actually the large part of the Sunni Arab nation states rather wish Israel would send Hamas to kingdom come and that it would deal Iran a big defeat, destroy its nuclear program, and instigate regime change in Tehran. The Shia-Sunni split and Fundamentalist vs Modernist split and regular ethnic rivalries Turk vs Arab, Kurd vs Turk, Persian vs Arab are all in play. It is a region of civil war and failed nation states.
Not so curiously, none of them want to take a single Palestinian refugee.
Jews from many parts of the world are encountering rising anti-Semitism and fleeing to Israel. The Hamas attack has unified the country at least for a while. The unruly pro-Hamas demonstrations are angering Western and European citizens.
More likely scenario is a clampdown on immigration and mass deportation in the West and Europe. Also expect moves by Abraham accord Arab nations and Eastern European countries to strengthen ties with Israel assuming Israel is given enough room to crush Hamas.
Arab states might have their internal conflicts, but they are all united in their hatred for Israel. If any such incidents of attacks(ethnic cleansing) on Muslims occur in Europe that are sponsored by their governments, we will unleash jihadi groups all over Europe. Middle East dollars will bankroll the Jihad, and Pakistan's intelligence agencies will train the jihadis, like we did in Afghanistan against USSR. Maybe some rogue Pakistan army general will leak nuclear weapons to such militant proxies as a Kamikaze attack, or a nuclear suicide attack if you want to call it.
Your sclerotic and aging civilization does not threaten Muslims. If you want war, you will get it. We will destroy Europe. Try it.
Israel already won the war of attrition dude - Egypt and Jordan made their peace with Israel, as did Morocco and Bahrain. Syria and Lebanon have no interest in going to war with Israel, and the Saudis hate Iran more than they hate Israel.
Iran's policy will fail because the Shias can't fight the Sunnis and the Jews at the same time.
Feel free to read the Qu'ran and hadiths, research the historical contexts, and listen to Muslim scholarly opinions (that is, the majority view) on "Jihad" for yourself.
No-one wants to read your crummy texts. While all religions suffer with profound, perhaps irreconcilable, challenges from geology, archaeology, textual criticism, physics etc., Islam always was a stupid religion for stupid people, a psycho bandit playing a confidence trick on dumb desert people that got out of hand. No nation with an IQ of 100 or above has ever adopted Islam and none ever will because it's just dumb. Whatever the Creator of the Universe is up to, he isn't going to give personal revelations to a prophet telling him he can have ever more sexual liaisons in contravention of societal norms.
That might be true, cause Sunnis are not a cohesive group either. The Sunni of Bosnia are not the same as those in Pakistan.
But it's also a diluted version that's unbound from the history of Islam and how the word has been used and understood by the Prophet and his companions.
The spiritual, self-improvement version does exist too. But also the religious war one.
And that's fine. We're on a violent planet that has not been able to transcend war, which has become very clear the last years.
I'm just saying that Islam itself is very clear on these matters.
If some group of Muslims want to take an extreme/twisted interpretation of the words then there is likely something else going on, not related to religion at all.
1) Prior to the formation of Israel, Jews lived in Palestine without any issues.
2) After Israel, you slowly start to see a rise in these extreme groups and ideologies in that region. And especially after
Given these two statements, is it the case that Muslims are taught to hate others no matter what? or is it more likely that people in that region have been abused to the point of becoming radicalized?
Because about a month ago there was an already convicted Imam , in Montreal, in front of Twenty Thousand Muslims in Montreal, Quoting the hadith, im sure your familiar with the verse(s) ???
So you want to go down that road?
Fine
Some Muslims you say.?
Fir starters.
Please Provide Percentages
Apostacy?
Homosexuals?
Blasphemy?
Caliphate?
Witchcraft?
Pre Covid
Im walking down Ste Catherine Street
It was some Jewish gathering, independence day,or something , I Don t remember,what I do remember, Is this old Jewish couple walking down the Street, getting screamed at,insulted , and best yet spat on, imagine that.
Guess who was doing the spitting?
Looked to be no more than fourteen fifteen mabey sixteen. Calling them Putain, lots of French Arabs here.
So Saad, how is it that Jews that have lived here for over a hundred years, enduring Christian Hate and Racisim, that were barred, from many university programs, from the YMCA till the sixties and seventies , from Golf Courses...
Tell me Saad did these Jews,
Build families, business, followed the legal statutes, build hospitals that in this day and age , employ Muslim Doctors, Staff, take care of Muslim patients, aid in building the city,
Who never ever in my Sixty Seven Years , have ever seen Jews Rejoice at the Killing Of Arabs, never mind Palestinians. Never Ever Ever. Who never gloat at the pain of others.
So Saad, tell me who or how many is a few? Or some, Saad. PLEASE
FYI: Im not Jewish , and we have muslims in our family, through intermarrying.
Take a deep breath brother, I'm not your enemy here. I'm also a fellow Canadian actually - and proud to be one.
It's true there are some extreme people in our faith, and these voices are often extra loud in times like this. It's also true that there are some countries where extremist thought is more widespread (I'm Pakistani-born, so i know). This is unfortunate and something all Muslims need to be more vocal about.
However, I don't think we should be using personal anecdotes from our life to generalize a whole group of people. Otherwise, I also have dozens of examples of people spitting on Muslims in my community, Israeli settlers celebrating the death of babies, etc etc.
If you want to see how people are treated in *actual* Muslim societies, read about the early caliphates, and how the Jews lived vs. under Christian rule
I would encourage you to also visit mosques, or just make more Muslim friends. Figure out for yourself whether majority Muslims believe in any kind of "directive to kill jews". There are also plenty of great youtube videos by respected scholars/teachers like Yasir Qadhi and Nouman Ali Khan, who talk all about Islamic laws and theology regarding a multitude of issues that you bring up (apostasy, blasphemy, etc).
I agree with most of your assessment, I also know that in all my sixty seven years, of living in Montreal, have never ever seen kids spitting on older people, but then again.....
In terms of interactions with muslims, in my previous job, i. worked with quite a few muslim Co- workers, salt of the earth, wonderful , I would and have helped them and they would have helped me.
I also know about Muslim Hate, unfortunately, I found out about this when my cousins son started calling looking for money, my cousins son said it was for lawyers, his dad had been arrested for assault and threats to Muslims in Alberta.
I then googled his name and said WTF
We have a white supremacist in the family, I believe his son is as well. Like father like son? Ignorant.
An ignorant muslim hating rascist.
Part of an evil group that stretches through parts of Canada.
Is this what my grandfather fought for in the second world war?
As for religion, it is a large part of why we are in this position right now. The responsibility is with all religions not just one singular religion. It just so happens that at the moment, Radical Islam is the Religion that poses the greatest threat to stability in the world.
As for preachers on you tube, you have many, of all faiths preaching and quoting from this book this passage , god says this , the phropet says don't , It really doesn't add up to diddly.
One question Saad, when the Israelis were slaughtered or butchered on Oct 7th, name me one country where Arabs or Arab muslims condemned the acts, and throw in as well,the jew hating universities, and their professors.
Many deny that it happened, some even say it was the Israelis themselves.
No, they rejoiced and paraded saying praise be to God,Allah if you will.
Im writing this to you from Quebec City,
Where six muslim men were murdered and others paralyzed,and wounded, by a white supremacist. Canada was stunned, the mourning was across the country, except mabey my cousin and his sick cohorts who were gleefully praising this act of terror.
Were Québécois/ Quebecers parading in the streets? No, Canadians No, The family in London run down by that now convicted sick bastard. Canadians cheering No.
Saad, you never answered the questions that i posed in the last interaction.
If your Grand Parents were pushed from their Land, your Parents humiliated on a daily basis, Oncles, Siblings and Friends to be killed, you would not need an Ideology to hate.
Israelis who lose beloved ones do not need to believe in the „Erez Israel“ Ideology of Netanyahu to hate Palestinians, it is a human Reaction.
Not necessarily the best but it does not need any „Überbau“.
It is an ongoing War about Land first and Religion second, Hate is a Product of it.
In Northern Ireland there was a War between Catholics and Protestants, a very bloody War, that was much more a Bloodshed because of Ideology than the Conflict about Land in Israel/Judäa/Samaria/Palestinia and was only solved through Help and Pressure from the Outside.
Whether this might Help in this Case I do not know, but to believe, that this War is more about Religion and Jihad than Land is ignorant.
Northern Ireland was wildly different. It was trendy to draw that comparison in the 90s, but civilians were never widely targeted (and when they were, everyone tried to disavow involvement), and the total death toll was actually quite low.
To make clear: There was not more Bloodshed in Northern Ireland as my clumsy Grammar might imply. It was Bloodshed because of Ideology opposite to Bloodshed for Land.
The Troubles in Northern Ireland were resolved, albeit imperfectly, with a political agreement.
One can't enter into a political agreement with people committed to kill their opponents. The only alternative is war, if one's family, country, and society are to survive.
Since the Murder of Rabin through an Israeli Right Wing Terrorist; Benjamin Netanyahu did nothing for a 2 State Solution. Anyone who claims different is highly ignorant.
The Erez Israel Movement wants Israel from the Sea to the River.
The Settlement of the Westbank is aided by Terror by Settlers.
These Settlers do not want Peace, neither does Hamas.
If the real issue was jihad in Israel/Palestine, why was the PLO a multi-religious organization at its inception? There were Christian and Socialist members. Sounds like you, like Richard, know next to nothing about the history of the conflict?
I don't know shop much about the history of the conflict, I guess no more than someone who grew up with it in the background on the news. But it nevertheless strikes me that there are two factors here which will likely shift the dynamic towards Israel leaving the region.
First of all, it seems to me that this is the best article, or at least one of the best articles I have read on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and I have read thousands.
However, carrying out ethnic cleansing in the Palestinian territories will be very difficult and morally controversial. Moreover, no country will volunteer to absorb Palestinian refugees, and rightly so. The realistic model is autonomy for the Palestinians, where they will not live under occupation in most respects, but with absolute security control by the IDF, which will prevent terrorism from raising its head. Before the terrible mistake of the Oslo Accords in 1993, in which Yitzhak Rabin gave the terrorists territory adjacent to the center of Israel, fewer Palestinians were killed in all 25 years of occupation than are killed in typical 2-3 days of this war.
Strong IDF security control combined with Palestinian civil autonomy that will provide economic prosperity is a reasonable combination, and if the international community wakes up and realizes that this is the best deal, life will be bearable. In 2020, 3 people were killed in Israel by Palestinian terrorism. It is possible to stabilize the death toll at such numbers, even without absolute solutions.
I believe the most effective approach combines the utmost Palestinian despair regarding national achievements with the greatest Palestinian hope for personal successes - such as economic success, family support, and career development. Among Arab citizens of Israel, despite prevalent hatred towards Israel, many are outstanding doctors who impartially treat injured soldiers. This happens because they concentrate on their personal lives, and Israeli security forces prevent the formation of a national structure that could engage them in conflict.
"I believe the most effective approach combines the utmost Palestinian despair regarding national achievements with the greatest Palestinian hope for personal successes - such as economic success, family support, and career development. "
This is absolutely true, but the Oslo process cannot be simply undone without killing tens of thousands of people.
This is a bit of digression, but I think it's important to state clearly why Oslo was such a disaster. It wasn't just the idea of using a terrorist paramilitary as a security proxy; it's the fundamental idea that there can be a compromise with Palestinian nationalism when Palestinian nationalism has no meaning whatsoever except as the antithesis of Zionism. There has never been anything that makes a Arab in Nablus, an Arab in the Galilee, and and Arab in Gaza the same nation (distinct from Jordanians, Syrians, Egyptians etc.) except that these were the lands claimed by Zionists. Even a Palestinian nationalist who is personally willing to compromise on two states cannot but teach irredentism to his children.
I recently listened to a talk by Rashid Khalili and he mentioned that consciousness of the Nakba was much greater among Palestinians today than it has ever been, even though the generation that lived through it is mostly dead. The Naqba experienced by Palestinians was essentially an agglomeration of bad things that happened to people (and, of course, many of them were perfectly aware that it was the outcome of a war they had been eager to fight). The Naqba that Palestinians have learned about in school is something that happened to 'a' people. Palestinian national identity is literally inseparable from the desire to destroy Israel. Every generation of Palestinians is more hostile because the Palestinian idea is more deeply embedded in their identity.
So to return to where I started, there is no way to make peace without liquidating Fatah, the PLO, Hamas, every school, every youth group, everything. And even then it might not be enough. Sometimes 'a crooked thing cannot be made straight'.
"Palestinian national identity is literally inseparable from the desire to destroy Israel. Every generation of Palestinians is more hostile because the Palestinian idea is more deeply embedded in their identity."
Sounds like Israel should have made peace long ago then, instead of continuously building settlement that make a 2 state solution impossible.
You should probably just rename your account, 'the Cathedral'. The Palestinian identity to which I refer is most strongly inculcated where there are no settlers, namely Gaza, and area A of West Bank. It is most weakly inculcated where there the most settlers, namely inside Israel. It is somewhere in the middle in area C where all the hoo-hah is about.
Israel cannot make peace with Palestinian nationalist groups, because Palestinian nationalism has no content beyond anti-Zionism. It cannot make peace with individual Palestinians because that is not a real thing that can actually happen. It can make peace with other Arab states. It can, to some extent ,make peace with various Palestinian clans, but this is made near impossible at present by the authority of Palestinian nationalist groups over these clans.
Gaza is an open air prison where Israel controls what goes in and out, including people. It also has bombed their critical infrastructure in past operations. And it shoots anyone who comes within 100 meters of the fence line. To pretend like they were left to their own devices is utterly dishonest Hasbara gaslighting.
Oh look, Cretin of the Cathedral bringing those edgy takes that otherwise I would have to go to the Washington Post for.
Try to actually think for a second. What I said was that hatred of Israel among Palestinians is inversely proportional to the amount of settlers in their midst. Your comment doesn't address that at all and attacks some other unrelated argument. You appear to think you are arguing against a normie Hasbara account. If you want to do that, I'm sure there are plenty you can find.
Ah yes, the Washington Post, who publish Israeli 5th columnists like Jen Rubin and Max Boot. They totally agree with me.
And my point is germane to yours if you try to actually think outside of your ethnonarcisist frame for a second. The people with the worst standard of living, and least freedom (i.e. Gaza), are the most violent. The people with the best standard of living and freedom (Israeli Arabs), are the least violent. And the West Bank is in the middle, where your distinction of Area A vs. C doesn't have a ton of evidence. I'm guessing the Jews who were able to avoid the Ghettos in the 1930's were a lot less violent than those in places like the Warsaw ghetto.
They withdrew from Gaza and locked the gates behind them, shot anyone who came within 100 meters of the fence, and completely control what gets in and out.
If they actually had complete control of what gets in or out of Gaza, the Oct 7th attacks couldn't have happened. Gaza, of course, has a border with Egypt that Israel does not control.
The European Union Border Assistance Mission at the Rafah Crossing Point manages that border, and Israel has the right to challenge anyone who crosses in either direction.
I don't believe there is a solution. Israel should just try and keep a lid on things, avoiding wars that it can't win (which is basically all of them) while trying to stop paramilitaries building up military infrastructure on its borders and making peace where possible with Arab countries. In essence, Netanyahu's policy of the last 20 years was the right one, including the bits that have been labelled - unfairly but not entirely without cause - as propping up Hamas. It just wasn't executed very well, because Israel is a very dysfunctional country with appalling dysgenics and all the political chaos and incompetence that comes with it.
(Presumably, you are not looking for an answer, but rathe being very original and making an accusation of Nazism, but I think it's best to answer in good faith even questions that were not asked in it).
I was provoking a bit, but if I really wanted to be mean, I would not have asked with the Title of a US American Movie but used my native Language.
I do not believe that Israels Answer to the Murder of Rabin, by voting for the Program of his Israelian Murder was the good Choice by the People.
We all can see that the Corruption of Netanyahu combined with the Erez Israel „Landnahme“ Projekt undermines what Israel made Different from the Countries around it: Lawful Democracy.
And that your Netanyahu in his Egotism is a lousy Protector of Israel.
After the totally perverse Onslaught by Hamas, of whom I suspect always the Worst, I hoped Israel this Time would find the right Response, but with Bibi Netanyahu you knew the Chance was not so great.
In many States „Selfdefense“ is legal, but „Excessive Selfdefense“ in the most Cases not. And what the World sees now is a „Selfdefense Excess“ that ever more People see as Criminal.
And with this Selfdefense Excess the Next „Selfdefense Excess“ is guaranteed.
The Fact that Hamas has the Backing by a Lot of Gazaans is to a big Part the Guilt by the Politics of the Rabin-Killer executed by Bibi Netanyahu.
Your Illusions how the Palästinians could be „befriedet“ by making them the Subordinated Coolies of Jewish Israelis is not South African Apartheid but „Jim Crow“ in the Style of the USA.
Israel is not strong enough to Install such a Layered „Democracy for Jews only“ Programm in „Greater Israel“ without the Money from the USA.
But how long will US Americans see their Government spend so much Money for Israel.
You know you can count on the Collectiv Guilt Feeling of most Germans, but even in Germany many think that Israel in not want to be the Victim any longer, bullies to many Palästiniens to much and to strong.
I was 11 Years old at the Time of the Olympic Games of Munich and was shocked by the Terror in these Days
and I have no Understanding for People who understand Suicide-Attacks. I despise People who send their Children and Young People into Suicide.
I despise the Hamas but I allow myself to despise Bibi Netanyahu and I do not understand why Israel still wants to be lead by this Criminal.
You're rambling a bit (I recommend paragraphs), but I'll address one issue because it seems to be a source of widespread confusion outside Israel.
Israel isn't fighting a brutal war in Gaza with massive civilian casualties because of Bibi, but because of the centrists Gantz and Gallant who are determining strategy along with their likeminded colleagues who run the army. The Israeli centrist view is that Israel should withdraw from territory where possible to shed the cost of occupying Palestinians, but on condition that if Palestinians attack, Israel should attack back with full military force, making no allowance for Palestinians being poor, incompetent and frankly pretty crazy. Netanyahu is definitely a criminal, but he is also absolutely the most war-averse politician in Israel because he correctly sees war as undermining his two strategic priorities of locking in American support and making peace with Arab countries. To reiterate what I said, though Bibi's plan of keeping a lid of things has obviously utterly failed, I still believe it was the best option on the table.
I am rambling a bit, coz English is not my Mothertongue.
But the Advice, to leave Space is a good one.
That the „Middle“ is following the Ideology of the Rabin Murderer is not lost on me.
But on the Day Israel voted for the first Time for Bibi Netanyahu the „Two State Solution“ became „A Lie told to the West“.
The West Bank Settlers knew that their
„Erez Israel“ Project will only be verbally Rejected.
Their wish of an Israel from the „Sea to the River“ had always the Backing by the Governments and a big Part of the People in Israel.
Since I am not religious I won‘t go for religious Claims for the Land.
Since in Modern Days, Jewishness is not only defined by Religion but also by Descent, which People in Germany who where not Jewish for quite a long Time were faced by Adolf Hitler and the Nazis.
For them Jews were by Descent „Semitic“ and therefore belonging to a Minor Race, belonging to Hebrews, Arabs, Syrians, Ethiopians and Phoenicians.
It is really astonishing how Defenders of Israel today, call any Enemy of Israel „Antisemitic“.
The Term was pushed up by German Racists in the 19th Century and it did definitively include Palestinians.
Only US American Woke Talk started to use this Word in a Way that calls
Palestinian Muslim Selfhaters.
The Reason is simple:
It should be implied that Palestinians hate Jews for the same Reasons as White Europeans: Racism!
But it is a War for Land first and for Religion second.
It is Anti-Israelic and Anti-Jewish but not Antisemitic.
It is about Time this Term invented by German Racists gets thrown over Board.
The Conflict is „Intra-Semitic“ as the Conflict between France and Germany was Intra-Franconian.
The richest City in Switzerland is Zürich, the biggest County is Zürich.
There are quite a Lot of People in Switzerland who detest or hate People from Zürich for similar Reasons as Europeans hate Jews.
But nobody would call these People „Antiswiss“
We both know that Wars makes Facts:
So Israel in the Boarders of 1967 without the Westbank, Gaza and the Golan is Israel, as hard as this feel some Palestinians, but Gaza, the Golan and the Westbank is not.
If Israel wants its Country from the Sea to the River the Price is an ongoing War for Land.
Don‘t lie about it, it is not Antisemitism.
Reserve that for those who are Antisemites: Germans, Anglosaxons, Poles, Russians, nearly all other Europeans.
Or live with the Fact that People might call Israels Aggression towards Palestinians „Antisemitism“.
Do not tell me that Sloppy US American College Talk can define Racist German Term.
In the USA they say Billion to a Milliard.
And they call Socialists Liberals.
So their Lingo does not help.
Fact is:
Erez Israel wants all the Land from the Sea to the River, no matter how many other „Semites“ live their.
"Civil autonomy" is useless when you're under blockade, particularly as a small country with few natural resources. Even a country with as productive a citizenry as Singapore would be poor without access to maritime trade. Gaza is economically hopeless as long as its blockaded, and I'm guessing you're not calling for an end to the Israeli blockade, so 'civil autonomy' is pretty much useless.
Israeli here. Westerners know very few details about the conflict and even Richard falls to obviously false HAMAS-reported numbers of civilian deaths - HAMAS rules in Gaza and only HAMAS is the source of all "official" Gazan numbers. They come with incredible precision like fake 471 dead after attack on hospital which was HAMAS missile falling early. No, there are no 16 000 dead in Gaza - all terrorist groups are liars.
A million Arabs live in "mainland" Israel itself, i.e. outside Palestinian Autonomy (PA) and Gaza. There are lots of problems among their own community like incredible mafia violence killing even children (UM silent as usual) and complex relations with Jewish people but, for example, half of medical school graduates are Arabs and a 1/4 of nurses. At hospital your doctor very will be an Arab and it works. They have their own parties (both hate each other!) and parliament members. By the way, many Arabs are Christians - in Nazareth 30% are.
And the largest issue - the Jordan Valley is the place where Jews and Judaism appeared at least 2850 years ago (earliest inscription on the wall by invading king). Not allowing Jews live where Motherland is has only one name -racism - which is now policy of Democratic Left in US. Hilarious.
As it concerns Muslim support of Gaza - support is among the ordinary people but they do not decide anything in the Middle East (or decide very little). Every Muslim knows who orchestrated 7/10 (Iran and Russia), why (prevent Abraham's Accords be signed with S.Arabia) and even Hezbollah does not really jump into the boat.
The recent extraordinary meeting of Muslim states had shown no real support for Gaza and actually said "Be strong! We are together!", nothing else when full boycott of Israel was planned. S.Arabia confirmed they are still in contact with Israel.
So the most of damage is done by "useful idiots" mainly in US being openly pro-HAMAS. They are the sheep to be slaughtered for HAMAS as tragically loudest pro-Palestinian voice in Israel Viviene Silver was killed at home at her Kibbutz when every attacker knew who was she...
Ignorance, stupidity, naivety, hopeless unrealistic idealism - I do not know how to call this Western disease.
I found this post interesting and enlightening. I would like to propose that we stop seeing and promoting Palestinians as "refugees. "
I will use a true anecdote to illustrate why: when my mother-in-law, a Korean born in what is now North Korea in the late 1940's, fled the north during the Korean War with her family, her father bribed/paid a fleeing truck driver to take his family as far south as possible. Her mother made sure to leave only with the clothes on her back, and she carried a large sewing machine.
Why the sewing machine? Because her mother knew that she was not going to be a "refugee." For a refugee, there is always hope of going back. She was going to be a "migrant" with her family in the south. They knew they were not going back. They were going to make a living in what is now South Korea. My mother in law immigrated to the US, and did very well as a dress designer, eventually having her own company that made high end dressers.
The world needs to stop accepting the narrative of Palestinians as refugees. Multiple wars have led to decreasing land for this Palestinian state project, and not only have Palestinian leaders failed, but the regional Arabs and the UN have also failed Palestinians by promoting the ghetto-ization of Palestinians by making them depending on foreign aid to keep them as refugees rather than as migrants.
They need to take the sewing machine and create a world for themselves, rather than live for the hatred of Israel.
> create a world for themselves, rather than live for the hatred of Israel.
That's tough when you have no control over your own borders. Gaza is under total land, air, and sea blockade; they are not free to trade with other nations for the resources they need to develop.
Maybe if they didn't constantly use every chance they get to attack or to gather materials for attacking later on, then the controls wouldn't be so strict.
And maybe if the Israeli government gave Palestinian leaders incentives to not attack, they would stop. Fatah in the West Bank ended all arrmed resistance against Israel, and the West Bank was "rewarded" with settler violence, land seizures, and military checkpoints. Israel has for decades punished the moderate faction of the Palestinians while rewarding Hamas extremists (allowing money transfers, pulling out all settlements from Gaza, etc). Netanyahu thought he could "control the height of the flames," unfortunately thousands of innocent Israelis paid the price.
Didn’t Jewish families who fled Spain in 15th centuries keep keys from their homes? At least that’s what a guide in Seville told us. According to your logic, they followed a mirage.
Directionally, there's a lot of truth here. But a few points I'd take exception with:
1. While China's overwhelming force, and the immense power of the Chinese state, surely have something to do with the muted reaction to the Uighurs, I wonder how much is due to other factors.
The Uighurs are non-Arab, located in the remote northeastern corner of the Muslim world. And China is a more closed society and better able to manage the narrative, to keep negative imagery from escaping. Are there Uighur kids held in cages somewhere? Probably, with some quick Googling I can find this allegation made, but no pictures or video. There IS video of Palestinian children held in what look like chicken cages by Israelis (which, at the beginning of this war, was notoriously mislabeled as Israeli children being held by Palestinians).
Most people are basically innumerate, especially at the emotional level. A good video does more damage than any statistic could.
2. When it comes to the international community, the hatred of Israel is more linear. Though it should be clear here that "linear" here is really logarithmic, because per my point about innumeracy, it's not the number that's influencing people, it's the imagery that that number produces.
Killing 2,000 vs. 1,000 civilians doesn't double your level of opposition, I don't even think killing 10,000 vs. 1,000 does. The number is probably somewhere between 10,000 and 100,000.
Also the "International Community" clearly needs to be modeled in discrete groups, with different functions for what it would take for them to hate Israel. Something like: Arabs > non-Arab Muslims and Marxists (including Woke) > rest of world > Americans.
There is some level of Israeli violence that would make even US Boomer Republican support decrease somewhat. Though support for Israel would never drop to zero worldwide, just as support for Palestinians would never drop to zero, even in the event of one side systematically exterminating the other entirely.
I want to add one observation to the China/Uighur thing.
China has engaged in persecutions of Christians. Including committing a really gross offense: working on a substantially rewritten Party-approved Bible. Now, a number of Christians in the West have written about this and complained. There are actually a lot of Christians in the West that have spent time in China as missionaries; I'm personally acquainted with at least four such families. I know Christians who have advocated a much more hostile foreign policy towards China largely because of its treatment of Christians.
So while from where I'm sitting, it seems Christians in the West care more about this issue than Arab Muslims care about the Uighurs, I can't escape the feeling that if all this was happening in the West, we Christians would be FAR more incensed. Finland tried twice, and failed twice, to prosecute a Christian politician for hate speech for arguing that marriage is between a man and a woman. And even though, as Western places go, Finland is pretty remote and weird, that one event just strikes much, much closer to home than anything happening in China.
Some of this is that events happening in what we once thought of as "Christendom" strike us harder. But I'd also argue that, as foreign and faraway places go, China is ESPECIALLY alien, and therefore we are ESPECIALLY emotionally detached from it. I imagine this is as true for Arabs as it is for Westerners.
China has a history and culture that we're generally not educated on. If you've so much as heard of "Water Margin", you're well into the 99th percentile. We can't even keep Chinese names straight. Their tonal language sounds bizarre to our ears far beyond most non-Indo-European languages, like the speakers might not even have the same set of human emotions as us. Their moon-script is perplexing far beyond any alphabet-based system, even Arabic.
So, I'd contend that for the average Westerner OR Arab, emotionally-speaking, events happening in China are more or less happening on Mars. Or at least the moon.
During the Civil War, General Sherman's destruction of property of the Old South's elite during his March to the Sea and his northern advances through the Carolinas were designed to crush the Southern Classes hope for any type of true resurgence of the Old South. This was as much real destruction of property as it was a moral and psychological defeat. Likewise, the Palestinian mind has to face the reality that the insistence on the Right of Return and the denial of the right of Israel to exist can only mean an expulsion of the Palestinians from the Levant and/or their destruction. A war between the Palestinians and the Israelis will not end well for the Palestinians.
Um, the conventional wisdom - mostly correct - though is that Reconstruction was basically a failure; the North tried and failed to crush the Old South, and realized it wasn't willing to pay the price of permanent large scale occupation to force the south to abide by the new amendments, so instead it left them alone for 100 years until the south changed oragnically due to economic development.
That analogy doesn't work. Sherman's march was purely military in order to force the CSA government to collapse and surrender. Southern hatred for the North continued for decades through failed Reconstruction and a mini civil war involving carpetbaggers and lynch mobs. The South was placated not through destruction but through a gentleman's agreement that slavery was done for but all other questions of civil rights and Northern/Midwestern liberalism would not be forced on the South, and the South could rig its own elections as much as it wanted. That agreement was essential to creating an incredibly disparate yet ultimately victorious political bloc where Northern Jews, Blacks, Irish, etc could all happily and with calm of mind vote for the same national candidates that Southern Klansmen would vote for, knowing that whatever their sociocultural differences, they were irrelevant to one another.
Israel is doing the exact opposite of that by ensuring Palestine has no real political autonomy nor control of its own economy. Palestine has been suffering a nearly 80 year failed Reconstruction.
I don't know what you mean by "acknowledge"; surely you don't believe that some Palestinian authority says "Ok we lost now please give our land back" and then Israel agrees. The South lost the war; Northerners continued to occupy and control their state governments and land to varying degrees until the Compromise of 1877. It should be noted that Northern occupation of the South in the period of 1865 to 1877 was far less harsh and destructive to families than Israel's occupation has been in Palestine. Defeat can be taken on the chin, but displacement and humiliation will inevitably inspire terrorism.
In fairness to Israel, the one thing they seem to be doing right to pacify issues is giving Palestinians tons of junk food and making them obese. Although overt terrorism in the South rapidly died with the end of Reconstruction, some degree obviously persisted all the way up through the Civil Rights Acts; historic/familial grudges die hard. However, the rise of the moonpie-eating sportsball-watching Bubba seems to be the phenotype that best coincides with Southerners becoming tame and racially egalitarian. More welfare, more sugar, more porn, this is what Palestinians need. That's what makes Hanania so frustrating sometimes; picking the high-competency center-liberal road has never been more clear than in the case of Palestine, yet it's on this long-failed issue that extreme-right genociders are being placated.
It's more that some Palestinian authority says "OK we lost now please let us have more autonomy in the land we've still got left" and then Israel gradually agrees if the Palestinians can behave themselves and not launch any attacks.
Israel's occupation has been "harsh and destructive" because the Palestinians are still fighting a war they lost decades ago.
If the Confederacy was still trying to bushwhack their way to victory in 1892, the north would be increasingly ratcheting up the destruction trying to make the message sink in that slavery is done for.
"The Irrationality of Anti-Israeli Sentiment" would be better titled as "The Irrationality of a classic Straw Man characterization of Anti-Israeli Sentiment".
That the pro-Israel case always consists of substantial lies and meme magic has not gone unnoticed on TikTok, and if you look at the popularity of various hashtags there, Israel is FOR ONCE losing the meme war (by at least a 10x margin), and dominance of the memetics sphere has always been their secret weapon. Most of the pro-Palestinian people seem to have also simultaneously lost their Pavlovian reaction to the most powerful weapon of all: the term "anti-Semite".
If this trend holds, some analysts are projecting Israel will lose US public support in about 10 years. Israel will still presumably control US politicians due to their top notch lobbying (and perhaps the Epstein kicker), but if that should ever break, being alone surrounded by enemies in the Middle East isn't going to be a pleasant experience for someone with Israel's track record.
Best of luck to you and your strategy, Israelis! :)
How old are you? You strike me as someone in their late teens or early 20s who just got into politics and has been consuming a lot of internet content on it. I see many of the same signs of when I was young and stupid.
I am 53 Richard, and if you would like to engage me in a public debate so we can discover the truth of our relative intelligence, levels, I'm your man.
A friendly warning though: I've locked horns with literally thousands of people like you, but I'd be surprised if you've ever even encountered a single instance of someone like me.
I'm working in the office today so will be mostly offline for the next 10 hours or so, but I will be available after that to light you up.
Let's proceed, there are few things I love more than a spectacle!
This is a good opportunity for you to point out that "I seem like" a first year philosophy student (a standard normative reaction to philosophical ideas). Except, I suspect you are well smart enough to see the folly in that move in this particular context.
If Israel can crush Hamas and deter Iran, it will emerge from this struggle much stronger. There are a host of Arab Sunni leaders who are hoping Israel wins, notwithstanding public denunciations. The Arab world is fractured between Shia and Sunni, between Jihadis and Royalist/Secular/Military segments. The Arabs are also not so fond of Turkish or Persian domination. Israel is a useful counterweight. After the Abraham accords, Israel has more Arab and Islamic support than it did in the 1970’s. Israel trounced armies far larger than 100k in its wars in 1948, 1967, and 1973. Jordanians may not like Israel, but they need to drink water and the deal trading Jordanian solar generated electricity for Israeli desalinated water is too much in everyone’s interest to be derailed by Hamas and Iran. This larger locus of mutual benefit is what you are missing.
In the short run the idea is to deter escalation by Hezbollah, the Houthi, and Iran to prevent the current Israel -Hamas war from getting out of hand. But the larger goal is to deter Iran from terrorist and aggressive expansion and deter it from developing a nuclear weapon and ballistic missile delivery systems for it. The deterrence is the threat of a few dozen bunker busters which would set back the nuke program to near zero. The threat is of a week or two of a coordinated air campaign that would decimate Iranian air defenses and its air forces. Iranian port facilities and oil fields would then be vulnerable. A lot of Iranians really like Israel it is said. So the trick is to do maximum damage to the theocracy and minimum damage to the people. It’s not the monetary cost to Iran that is the deterrent. It’s the realization they could be attacked and hurt.
This is a neocon wet dream. An all out assault on Iran would close the straights of Hormuz and oil would be $200/barrel. That's not to mention the fact that there are dozens of US bases within Iranian missile range, as well as Israel itself. And don't make me laugh with Iron Dome. It can barely deal with a bunch of homemade bottle rockets shot off by Hamas.
Not an all out assault. But the US can destroy Iranian air defenses, air bases, nuclear facilities, and naval bases.The advantages of stealth, precision guidance, and signals jamming are very significant. Basically Iran would be fighting blind. After such an opening stage campaign by the US, it would be Iran that would want to descalalate and cool things down.
Notice how this Normie has also picked up on democracy being fake, the negative economic aspects of US support of Israel, etc.
The Normies awakening from their hypnosis is not good news for Israel, and every single counter PR meme campaign that Israel launches is met with thousands of counter TikToks, literally mocking the utterly transparent lies.
I think this is a very interesting period of history to live in. Luckily for me I won't have to live through the next phase like Israelis will have to. Perhaps they can change course and try making peace for a change, but cultural change is not easy.
Most Americans are still pro-Israel. And TikTok is indeed dumb. Video content is dumber than text content, and short-form video dumber than longer form. Hence smartphones becoming popular shortly before "the Great Awokening".
Most boomers are, but younger people are either indifferent, or hostile to, Israel. You think you're going to convince a majority nonwhite America to give two shits about the Holocaust? Or some spat in the Middle East?
Observe how smart young people are, observe how easily TikTok can slice through the standard tricks mainstream media uses to control people's perception of reality.
If anyone here isn't on TikTok (because it's "just dumb teenagers dancing" or "just a waste of time, and the Chinese are going to steal your info" (memes which were also mocked relentlessly when the compromised US government tried to ban it based on deceit)) is missing out on the main show.
If the US government can't find a way to ban TikTok, I don't see how it isn't going to change the world for the better.
Uh oh, seems like he's noticed our entire system is built on literal lies...let's hope that knowledge doesn't spread eh!
TikTok dissolves the artificial divisions that have been craftily constructed between members of the public like nothing else. And the speed of iteration is unprecedented, it's like agile in software development, except for human cognition.
It’s not about land. It’s about the Islamists belief it would be against their religion to allow a Jewish state to exist in the historic Jewish homeland. The Palestinian Arabs have rejected land compromises time and again, and never made a counter offer.
Christian Arabs are split and Israel has many kinds of Christians with differing opinions about Israel. But very few if any Christians are as fully rejectionist as Hamas. Fewer still are Hamas members. After all they know the Islamists view them as infidels.
I commend you for making a cogent argument without invective or insults. I think the point that needs to be made is that all the organizations representing Palestinian Arabs have rejected every land partition offer and given no counteroffers. The earlier Grand Mufti rejectionism of the 1930s was overtly pro-Nazi but later morphed into more of a Pan-Arabist opposition to having a non-Arab state. Later after several wars and decades, various Arab nations made peace with Israel. Within the Palestinian Arab population outside Israel, there have been various factions. The PLO was organized by the KGB in the 1960s as a secular umbrella organization to create a Palestinian national movement. After Oslo in the 1990s, the PLO was given administrative control of parts of Judea and Samaria, over 25 years it has never given a public land offer to settle final status and obtain Palestinian statehood. Hamas won an election and a civil war in Gaza. It is explicitly Islamist and refuses to negotiate any land deals with Israel. So the history is complicated. But the point remains:it is not a land dispute. It is that Arab rejectionists deny the right of a Jewish state to exist in the historic Jewish homeland. Since various Arab states have made peace with Israel, and the most bellicose opponents of Israel are Islamist, I believe it is accurate to say the most strident rejectionism now is largely Islamist. Under the Red-Green alliance, you will also see Western Woke progressives opposed to the existence of Israel.
Every "offer" you claim the Zionists made was either BS or heavily favored them. Why, in the 1930's or in 1948, should they have agreed to hand over a ton of land that non-Jews lived on to create an explicitly Jewish state?
And I do not defend of Hamas, which is why I was against Israel withholding the PLO's tax money to prevent them from effectively campaigning in that election. Likud loves Hamas, because they are a perpetual block in creating a Palestinian state, which Likud according their own charter believes is Israeli land.
This is just a bullshit Hasbara version of history. The Palestinians have never been offered a remotely realistic deal. Robert Malley was on the ground at Camp David and has written extensively about this.
What was "unrealistic" about the 1947 partition? If by "unrealistic" you just mean that they want a deal where the Arabs are given 100% of the territory, sure.
The 1947 partition was the UN's first major decision. The vote was intitially going to come in heavily against partition. So the count was stopped, vote postponed to Friday, and the US applied massive economic pressure to force everyone else in line. (This was just after WWII, when US economic dominance was at its peak because everyone else had been ruined by the war.) Even so, no nation within 1000 miles voted in favor.
Events that happened 70 years ago, led by people now long-dead, shouldn't decide Israel's legitimacy in the present. That's no excuse to rewrite the history, though.
"Israel wasn't content with that" - No, it is the Arabs who were not content with that. The "ethnic cleansing" (expulsions) you're describing occurred during a war. Unless there was some Jewish conspiracy to make the Arabs start that war that I am unaware of.
Of course the Arabs weren't content with having their land and homes taken from them by force! You wouldn't have either, in their place, UN resolution or no.
Jews only owned 10% of the land in Palestine at the time of the recommended partition, and the recommendation gave them over 50%. Of course they agreed to that, and the people who were at risk of being displaced rejected it. If my buddy declared that I get to have a 1/3 of your property, but you get to keep 2/3, would you accept that deal?
"Jews only owned 10% of the land" - It's remarkable the stuff people come up with to say about this. There was no Palestine for Israel to have 50% of until the partition plan was invented (i.e. they got 50% of a small arbitrary boundary, not 50% of the British mandate), and Jews were the majority population in that patchy land area because it was invented for them to be a majority in. You're telling me that if the Negev desert had been excluded from the partition, the Arabs all would've said "OK that's fine, we were concerned that your state was going to contain a disproportionate amount of land relative to your population"? Give me a break.
EDIT: Also, I checked just now and Jews were 22% of said arbitrary boundary, not 10%.
Nobody was at risk of being displaced until the entire Arab region attacked Israel over the partition plan. The displacement was the direct result of that war. The Arabs who live in Israel today are at no risk of being displaced. This issue is like a crucible for every form of prevarication available to the human mind. The Arabs don't accept a Jewish state because they don't accept it. This is obvious to everyone. I don't care if you don't accept it; go ahead, try to kill them and push them out and let the chips fall where they may. The talking points on this are like a virus that's evolved under intense selection selection pressure to slip between the cracks in soft-hearted white person's skull--because the whole plan hinges on gaining their sympathy so as to influence foreign policy about the region. Which I guess makes sense. I mean what the hell, it's the most logical tactic so keep using it.
"The talking points on this are like a virus that's evolved under intense selection pressure to slip between the cracks in a soft-hearted white person's skull--because the whole plan hinges on gaining their sympathy so as to influence foreign policy about the region."
OUCH!
The "Palestinians" may not know how to build a functioning state, but they sure know how to manipulate white liberals (which really isn't too hard once you realize white liberals are simply helpless against any claim or plea made by someone they consider brown and oppressed).
I'm no liberal. I'm just not a dumb boomercon, so the brain dead "The jews dindu nuttin part 204" and "they hate us/Israel for our freedums" doesn't work on me.
"You're telling me that if the Negev desert had been excluded from the partition, the Arabs all would've said "OK that's fine, we were concerned that your state was going to contain a disproportionate amount of land relative to your population"? Give me a break."
They likely would have said no since it would have meant displacing Arabs either way.
"Also, I checked just now and Jews were 22% of said arbitrary boundary, not 10%."
Who'd you check with, Benjamin Netanyahu?
"Nobody was at risk of being displaced until the entire Arab region attacked Israel over the partition plan."
This is just false history. The Arab nations did not invade until the Civil War between the Arabs in Palestine and the Zionists was well underway, which included massacres of Arabs like Deir Yassin.
Right, so like I said, they wouldn't have accepted anything. Was there a concern that making the entire thing an Arab state would "displace Jews"? No, of course not. They don't want a Jewish state there.
I checked with the Internet. It's in the UN docs and on Wikipedia. But I'm sure you have special alternative sources.
"The civil war was already underway" - over land and nationalism. There is no indication that the population would be displaced if there were no war, just as the Arabs who live in Israel are not displaced today. If you think displacement is a natural consequence of statehood under a majority ethnic group then the Jews could just say the same thing.
From 1947-67, Jordan had control of the West Bank including East Jerusalem, and Egypt had control of Gaza. They could have given the Palestinians a state with all the contested land. Why didn’t they get that deal?
Because Israel had exceeded their allotment of the UN-recommended partition in the war, and declaring a state would have tacitly accepted the land Israel took.
You argue like an Anglo-Saxon Neo Liberal Economy Professor before 2008.
First: Like them you use bad Nomenclatura:
Antisemitism was „introduced“ by German Racists to make clear that they despise Jews for belonging to the „Deficient Race“ of Semites and not for their Religion.
Which meant: Jews who became Christians were still Semites and therefore deficient.
Sure Antisemitism towards Jews in Germany was stronger since there were nearly no Arabs in Germany who could marry into the „Arian“ Bloodpool.
Now it happens that Muslim Arabs consider themselves to be Semites.
By calling their hatred towards Israel and/or Jews you call them Selfheaters.
In your „Herrenreiter“ Ignorance you do not care about that: But be aware others do.
You are using a „Bullshit Term“ used by Racist German Bullshitters to Name something that could be much easier described by the Words „Judenhass“ (Jewhater) and/or Israel Hater.
The Reason Muslim Arab Palestinians for sure have stronger „Reasons“ for hating Israel and/or Jews: Religion and War for Land.
Whether their Hate is justified in the evident Magnitude or not can be seen differently, but what is clear is that you as a „Philosophical Herrenreiter“ believe that the Solution to Israels Problem is to show the Muslim Arab Palestinians the Whip whenever they call for their Rights.
Put those „Untermenschen“ in their Place.
And finally make them hate themselves.
Let them become good „Weiningers“!
I have no Sympathy for Islam and not much for Palestinians and I despise the Hamas, but reading your Anglo-Saxon Neoliberal „Herrenreiter“ Crap makes clear that I cannot eat as much as I want to vomit when I think of People like you.
I do not know what your „Ethnicity“ or „Religion“ is but be assured „Übermenschen“ like you are disgusting.
Turn around, step down and become „Human“ again. If you can.
Just to clarify, it's the term "anti-semite' that is the source of your objection? Please be aware that the term has lost all of its original precision and now means "someone who is saying something that some Jews, especially those in the media, don't like". This includes folks like John Mearsheimer, whose crime was questioning whether or not the pro-Israel lobby was really advancing Israel's own interests.
Also, your German last name and German way of using English, along with an apparent allergy to anti-semiticism, rather prove Richard's point about the ability of the victors to brainwash the defeated.
I am a German with a Danish Mother living and born in Switzerland.
Therefore I know what Antisemitism means: Semites and therefore Hebrews and Arabs are „Less than Arians“.
The Corrumption that occurs to Words when used by US Americans is a given Fact: See the rebranding of the Word Liberalism as sort if Socialism or taking a Number like Milliard and call it Billion.
What you do not get is that Muslim Arabs themselves believe they are Sons of Shem and therefore Semites as the Hebrews are too.
So you tell this Arab who considers himself to be a Semite that he is an Antisemite just because you want to use that Word coined by German Racists?
Just because Anglo-American Sloppiness has obscured the real Meaning of this „German Word“ I do not have to be as sloppy Lazy as you want to be.
The Palestinians do not hate the Israelis because of Antisemitism but because of a War over Land.
As French and Germans used to hate each others because a War over Alsace.
I do know that many People want to break this down to „Ideology“ to not adress the „Material“ Matter: Land!
The anti-semitism meme is also rapidly losing its magical power. Not only that: many of those for whom it has lost its power have also noticed that Israel and their supporters (pundits, politicians, journalists, etc) habe been using magic on them for decades, and people tend to not be fans of such tactics.
I have three little letters for you. WMD. You've failed to take in to account that in today's world very small numbers of people can exert vast power far beyond their numbers. If Palestinians were to completely lose hope, what else have they got to lose? We can be assured that somebody will hand them a WMD suicide vest.
Even if every Jew in the world were to move to Israel (and most don't want to) Israel would still be too small a state, in too dangerous a neighborhood, to be sustainable.
The bottom line is not that Israelis are evil and all of that. It is instead that the founders of Israel made a fatal tactical error in WHERE they chose to build a Jewish state. The founders had good intentions, and have been remarkably capable in sustaining the tactical error, but that foundational tactical error remains a noose around the neck of Israel.
WMD. Sooner or later, that will be the conclusion to this story for all sides of the conflict. The smart people on both sides will get out of the region before that moment comes, and the unfortunate on all sides will fight to the death over a scrap of desert in one of the worst neighborhoods on Earth.
Roughly half of American marriages end in divorce. The Middle East is a horror show divorce in progress, and the divorce will be completed only when both parties have stabbed each other with broken bottles, and are bleeding to death on the bathroom floor.
The actual leaders of Pakistan play with Islamist movements and Tribal groups like little chess pieces knowing they can cut off their funding and supplies any time they want. The ISI certainly has great influence in Afghanistan. But with US withdrawal from Afghanistan, Pakistan is suddenly a lot less important to the US. Pakistan is facing an existential threat from India. China is a tactical friend of Pakistan and it doesn’t want random Islamists to get a WMD. The leaders of Pakistan are not wild extremists- they are sober and intelligent and wouldn’t risk giving anyone a WMD.
Pakistan faces no existential threat from India, you fucking idiot. Pakistan practices the military doctrine of “bleed India to death by 1000 cuts". We carry out terrorist attack in India with full impunity ; just recently Pakistan backed Hezbul Mujahideen and Jammu Kashmir liberation front (JKLF) have killed dozens of indian soldiers in Kashmir this month. ISI also trains Sikh insurgents (khalistan movement- leaders of whom were assassinated in Canada by INDIA) in Lahore.
I personally know family friends who did jihad in indian occupied Kashmir lmao.
Pakistan maintains plausible deniability for diplomacy, but everyone knows we do them and India has not really responded in any way.
India does not have the ability to support militant proxies in Pakistan this way, even more important since we have installed pro Pakistan Taliban in Afghanistan.
It's true there's nothing really threatening Pakistan, but if Pakistan wants to change anything in India it's going to need to make more and deeper cuts than this. India seems to be doing just fine.
Hate is an emotion that no one can control, you can hate but you can’t act on it. Protestants hate Catholics and vice versa plus they have had a bad history. Neither of two groups now are committing any infringements on the other. Even if Muslims don’t like Jews that does not give Israel a free pass to not comply with international law. Moreover, talking about Israeli society, they have become an extremist far right society, who have adopted the ideology of Meir Khan. If you were truthful you would analyzed Israelis society evolution to the right over the 30 years. That actually the journalists David Sheen even said when the Khanist terrorist walked into the Ibraham quarters and killed 20 Muslim prayer, 30 days later Hamas launched the first suicide attack. Anti-semitism for the right has turned into anti-racism for the left. Hold your breath Richard Anti-semitism is going no where and it is rising due to the acts of zionist. Your are an untruthful man who is so blinded by liberal delusions. Believe me if for the last 50 years Muslims have shown one thing , they will kick ass of any occupier, Soviet Union, US in Iraq and Afghanistan, and it seems like Israel is on the path. You are a woke conservative nothing els.
As for what the "last 50 years" have shown, the Yom Kippur war did not show that Muslims would "kick the ass" of Israel, even if they did better than 1967. Richard already pointed out that Chechnya & Syria are points against the viability of Islamist movements (he neglected to note that Syria had already crushed them in an earlier generation). To that we could also add Algeria. The government the US set up in Iraq is still there, even if it wasn't worthwhile doing so. In Afghanistan the US was not really militarily defeated, we just decided to leave because it wasn't worth sticking around after having previously kicked out the Taliban and eventually assassinating OBL (here we absolutely failed to set up a stable government, but that doesn't seem to be what Richard is advocating here).
Yes I didn't mention Yom Kippur because it was between Egypt and Syria (official armies). The examples I gave were all guerrilla warfare, which Israel has not won in any war that was against urban fighters (you can call them terrorist I don't care).
More likely, Richard is simply a Normie, whose thinking is conditioned by the environment he was raised in.
Nice touch using the proper word for his deceit: untruthful. Normies would call it lying, but lying implies he knows better, which I doubt is the case.
Imagine if someone was to introduce semiotics to the general public and it caught on, Israel would really be in trouble if the common citizen was able to see through their skilful deceit with academic rigourl rather than simply common sense and intuition.
I guess it's the natural edge lord thing for you to do to come out in favor of ethnic cleansing, but even leaving aside that, crazily enough, some people morally object to that kind of thing in and of itself, going along with it has creates incentives for countries to do it again. Israel has wanted precisely this at least since Netanyahu came to power in the late 2000s; his government openly opposed Palestinian statehood - not now, or until some conditions are met, but ever - and supported Hamas over the PA for precisely that purpose, in order to enable Israel at a future date to annex Gaza and the West Bank and likely ethnically cleanse those regions of Palestinians (he himself is reticent about his end goal but a few of his cabinet members say this is the goal openly). If that plan works, then other states will take note and see it as a viable strategy of ethnically cleansing groups they don't like without becoming pariahs. It's ironic that you note the success of the Chinese with the Uighurs as a template to follow, but don't consider that countries like China are more likely to do this to ethnic minorities in the future precisely because they'll note that this strategy works because the 'international community' tacitly aids and abets it.
"Israel has wanted precisely this at least since Netanyahu came to power in the late 2000s; his government OPENLY opposed Palestinian statehood - not now, or until some conditions are met, but ever"
Netanyahu endorsed Palestinian statehood in the 2009 Bar Ilan speech. Maybe he didn't mean it or whatever, but whoever gave you your takes is not a reliable resource
Correct. The Likud is a one-state party, founded out of a terrorist paramilitary, that has moderated over time and now formally accepts a 2 state solution though clearly many of its members do not. In that regard it is precisely identical to Fatah, but oddly those who insist that Fatah should be taken at their word say the opposite about the Likud.
In what sense did Netanyahu support Hamas over the PA?
The only publicly known pro-Hamas moves Netanyahu’s made were allowing Qatari aid into Gaza and allowing Gazans to work in Israel. Both actions loosened the blockade, which leftists supposedly want. And neither is a privilege denied to the PA.
In 2006 Israel prevented the PLO from obtaining and using tax funds to make their case for the election. The also continue to demonstrate on a daily basis what a more peaceful Palestinian population will get in the West Bank: homes bulldozed, more settlements, settlers beating the shit out of you and burning your house down. If Israel was really interested in peace they wouldn't be expanding settlements and looking the other way at settler violence.
I guess you are missing the point. The leaders of Pakistan use the Jihadi warriors like little puppets they can use to raise and lower tensions with India, but they know they do not want a big war with India. Death by 1,000 cuts is a slogan but India has over a billion people and is more advanced technologically and its economy is much bigger and stronger. The existential threat is that India could crush Pakistan in a conventional war or at least get it into a war of attrition that Pakistan cannot win. Pakistan may win a few tactical battles, but it will not so slowly run out of people and munitions. It has no big power arms supplier. The Pakistani leadership is too smart to get into such a war. And it would never let any of its nukes get out of its direct control. What is hard for Islamist extremists to understand is that most Muslims are not as eager as they are to get into a suicidal war. When Islamists won the Presidency in Egypt during the Arab Spring, it wasn’t long before the military took them down. The military in Pakistan is even less willing to tolerate any threat from Islamists to its dominance.
Richard - This bit from your post about knowing when anger will be a useful and successful reaction is really important. Thank you for that. I would say, it’s true of other emotions and heretical ideas too. Have you considered expanding upon this as a more general concept to include other emotions and heresies? Or maybe you’ve already written on it somewhere?
“But there’s a psychological story we can tell here, in which people get angry when doing so is useful. If someone who is about the same size as you comes and slaps you in the face, you might get mad and hit him back. If he is a professional boxer, there’s a good chance that you’ll know better than to even get angry in the first place. Anger requires both grievance and some hope of taking action to change your situation for the better. When there’s no hope, it either never forms or dissipates.”
The trouble is that the "professional boxers" analogized in the piece - Assad's Syria and Xi's China, are (rightly) treated as barbaric pariahs in military and diplomatic terms by the United States.
Could Israel successfully execute the "Lose Hope" strategy if given a comparable cold shoulder by the US? Many seem to fear that they couldn't.
Ah yes, Assad is a barbaric pariah. But the US is a wonderful angel when they are illegally occupying his country, stealing his oil that could be used to rebuild it, and sanctioning it to hurt it even further. Idiots like you are amazing.
You're making my point. If the US treated Israel like we treat Assad's Syria that would be a huge and impactful policy change!
How about we just stay neutral and let each country lie in the bed they made?
Certainly in that region of the world where US strategic interests are limited and fading fast, I think your solution is a wise one.
Nice job keeping your cool when the above individual glossed over Assad/Syria’s treatment of their own citizens and role in the conflict and called you an idiot. Respect.
I don’t know much about their situation to make an informed comment, but I will say, that for me, I enjoy purity in certain areas of my life, and I’m willing to go to great lengths to obtain peace of mind. This style isn’t for everyone. What are they willing to pay for tranquility? I’m not sure, but I know what I would do.
There is another aspect to your argument which further bolsters it, and that is the point of "usefulness."
Almost since the start of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, each side was seen as essentially useless to other countries aside from the "only democracy in the Middle East" crowd. However, that is no longer the case as Israel's technology sector out punches it's weight by several magnitudes.
In 2022, Israeli technology start-ups raised $9.3B in VC funding, with a population of 9.4M, which means ~$993 in VC dollars per person.
In comparison the US raised ~$726 per person ($241B on a 332M population) while Western Europe raised an abysmal $296 per person ($101B on a 342M population).
All this means that Israel is an incredibly important strategic partner, and increasingly so. This goes for both the US (who needs to keep Israeli technology out of the hands of their geopolitical rivals) and poorly diversified countries, like Saudi Arabia, who need to ingratiate themselves into the Israeli technology sector to stop their slide into obscurity (and civil uprising) as the need for oil declines in the coming years.
This adds up to an international community who will start to be more tolerant of Israel's handling of the Palestinian issue, as their "usefulness" continues to rapidly diverge from the Palestinians lack thereof.
We will wreck your economy; bleed Israel by a thousand cuts, from the north, from the south, from the east and from the west. You can't sustain a reserve force of 18-21 yrs old for so long.
It sure doesn't seem like anyone has the appetite for this. Who will do it? After this?
Iran? Hezbollah? They don't want war, they are both in fragile states as it is. Lebanon is a total mess. Iran is the least stable it has been since the Iran/Iraq war. Are they really going to risk an open conflict? I don't see it.
hey dude calm down
You are being ridiculous.
IF they handle it in a defensible manner.
I believe you are framing the situation in terms that are too Western to provide useful insights. The desire for revenge might well afflict the average Palestinian. But the real issue here is jihad. The jihadist is not simply motivated by revenge. They occupy a dissociated mental state where they believe Allah is directing them to destroy local infidels for a heavenly reward. In Western terms, this would be considered a form of mass psychosis. The likelihood of Israel remaining a middle Eastern state likely depends mostly on the number of jihadists in the area. If it hits 100k plus, it's gonna get hard.
Hi, muslim here. Jihad most certainly does NOT mean "destroy local infidels".
Jihad literally means to "struggle", i.e. struggle against evil, and in the cause of good. Fighting your own urges is a form of jihad.
In the context of battle it refers to defensive actions - i.e. if your people are facing a threat.
And even then, there are strict rulings on warfare (do not kill innocents, do not harm trees, etc)
"Fight against them ˹if they persecute you˺ until there is no more persecution, and ˹your˺ devotion will be to Allah ˹alone˺. If they stop ˹persecuting you˺, let there be no hostility except against the aggressors." (Quran, 2:193)
So, jihad is kinda like a tree-hugging thing?
Instead of misrepresenting my argument with pointless quips, you could:
- research the definition and historical context behind the word yourself
- watch any of the dozens of youtube videos from respected Muslim scholars
- go to any local mosque and ask Muslims yourself what they think
may you find Peace
It's true that I made a joke. But you were not giving much of an argument, as I see it. You were giving me like the Islamic Wikipedia definition of jihad. I'm looking more at the actual behaviour and psychological state.
Appreciate the response.
It's true many extremists use concepts of jihad to justify all sorts of evil actions. This is unfortunate and wrong.
Though I would implore you to watch some documentaries or books that give a glimpse of the Palestinian perspective and what their quality of living is like.
And then ask yourself honestly:
1) do they fundamentally hate jews no matter what because that's what they're taught?
OR
2) they're angry because they've faced such violent persecution for so long, and need to find some religious justification for acts of revenge.
You would find, in 99% of cases, it is the latter. Just read about the founders of hamas and what they went through as children. In fact, 85% of hamas are orphans... I wonder how they became orphans.. or if that has anything to do with their psychology.
My larger point is this:
If you let the Palestinians have proper freedom, with well-defined borders, their own government, airport, seaport, security, etc etc. You will find most of them would accept this, and over time they would become less hateful. There is nothing in Islam that should breed a desire to "destroy local infidels". To say the opposite is to dehumanize an entire population and completely misunderstand the psychology.
If hamas (and radical Islam in general) is a virus, then we should treat the patient (Palestinians) with care, and over time the natural immune system will take care of it.
i'd make the argument that they fundamentally hate jews because that's what they're taught: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtErUuBvcRc&ab_channel=MEMRITVVideos
I agree that that would be an intelligent way forward for the majority of Israelis. But I actually think the hidden agenda is Al-Aqsa. It seems like the Israeli hard right want the Mount back for their third temple. They see Oct 7th as an oppo, whilst the average Israeli is in total shock, to make Gaza uninhabitable, clear the West Bank, and to thus establish greater Israel.
Forgive me, I don't know that much about Islam. But I once read somewhere that there are different interpretations of the Quran. The one you are presenting here was described as that of moderate Muslims, whereas the extremists supposedly believe that they have an obligation to murder all men who are either persecuting them or inhabiting lands once held by Muslims. The article claimed that unfortunately, the more extreme version is much more prevalent.
Jihad means struggle for the cause of Islam, military struggle being the struggle with the highest virtue. Hope that clears up.
Physical location Turkey, huh? You should be careful about your words buddy, some brothers from the Islamic network might want to come pay you a visit.
maybe don't threaten random strangers on the internet with violence?
I was not referring to you.
I know. We should maintain excellent character in conversation regardless
Originally, I left a rather incendiary comment. However, I will just say that while Hasbara is extremely cringe, Islambara is a whole 'nother level.
I will explain it to you in simple terms. The policy of the Iran is to bleed Israel by a 1000 cuts, a ditto copy of the military doctrine of Pakistan against India. You simply can not win this war in the long term ; right now all of the Muslim world hates Israel now ; from fucking Indonesia to Northern Africa. Maybe you will kill 1/4th of the Gazan population, but mind you there are 2 billion Muslims in the world. As of now, there are millions of Muslims who are absolutely seething for revenge. Your transgressions only emboldens them.
They will attack you from the East, from the West, from the South, from the north. A country like Israel can only be in a war like this for so long before the strength of it's young men is spent, economy ruined etc. It is war of attrition, and you can not win against Muslims in this.
Btw, as soon as US withdraws its military support, it is a matter of time some rogue Pakistan army general will leak nukes to Iran and other Arab countries, or nuke israel on it's own. This is the radius of Pakistan's Shaheen 3 nuclear missiles btw : covers all of Israel, and your defense system can't capture it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaheen-III#/media/File:Shaheen-III-missile-range.svg
I can't honestly believe this-- that antisemitism runs so strong and deep in Muslims that they themselves are willing to give a hoot about a distant country of Jews, wasting energy and resources while the biggest threat to Muslims is the autocratic regimes in their own country's and the inability of Muslim thought to enter the world of modernity. In fact, I think the Iranian mullahs use the Jews and Israel as a scapegoat and excuse to oppress their own people.
There is no contradiction between high antisemitism and autocratic regimes using Jews as scapegoats - on the contrary, these feed each other.
It is important to note that Muslims do not hate Jews in particular; jews thrived relatively in Muslim lands(compared to what Europeans were doing). Islam even allowed Jews to implement their own laws in Medina, as opposed to Islamic law. If Muslims really wanted to genocide jews, it would have been long done centuries ago - our empires stretched from Iberian Peninsula to India. Our dislike for jews is based on their oppression of Palestinians, desecration of the Al Aqsa mosque, and their general attitude of backstabbing muslims.
You misunderstand things. "Threats to Muslims" in number, consequence or duration have no importance whatsoever. However, any threat to Islam must be countered immediately and with selfless devotion by all Muslims.
Yes, on a purely memetic level, İslam is kinda fascinating in this aspect. It has this way of defending itself from threat. Under certain forms of psychological triggering, some young male believers will enter a psychotic state where all their emotional energy is channelled up into their head and they will willingly die or kill for the Islamic cause. No other religion has such a protection.
This is why it looks to me like Israel will lose over the longer term. Killing Muslims leads to more jihadists and they can just slowly grind the Israelis down over time, in a religious attritional war. I'm actually surprised that the Israeli right haven't wised up to this.
Your take is correct. A threat to Islam is a much greater threat than threat to muslims, although they often overlap.
Westerners accuse Muslims of being hypocrites on China's oppression of Muslims in Ughir. However, it is important to note that in this case Ughiurs are being oppressed because China oppresses all state religions and is just an authoritarian country overall , and other minorities, not because it hates Islam in particular.
https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-775160
Heading : "America needs to bomb Iran"
The source of all discontent and terror can be traced back to Israel. If there is to be peace in Middle East, Israel needs to go.
Other Muslim countries have no desire to even take in Palestinian refugees, much less fight wars for them.
Jordan took in thousands of Palestinians, and one of them assassinated King Abdullah. Lebanon, at one time a majority Christian country, took in thousands of Palestinians, and their country is now a wasteland of corpses and rubble. Egypt's military dictatorship has no desire to deal with millions of aggrieved Palestinians, and the Saudis have no desire to offend an ally. Iran alone seems to support them, but is a Shia nation with immense dislike for Sunnis. Pakistan is politically divided, barely stable, and terrified of its huge neighbor to the east.
In short, no Muslim majority nation has good reasons to attack Israel, and most assume, correctly, that an attack on Israel would provoke reprisals from the Americans, which would be merciless. The late Hussein family, Moamar Gaddafi, and the bin Ladins would, if they could, agree.
There are a lot of Muslims, and a lot of Muslim countries. Few want to walk into a bloodbath, excepting possibly Iran, but even the Iranians aren't suicidal.
You aware of the Iran Iraq War, the Gulf War (where Iraq invaded Kuwait, the current war in Yemen, and the civil war in Syria. What if your genocidal wish were granted and Israel "went" but there was still not peace in the Middle East? What then?
Actually the large part of the Sunni Arab nation states rather wish Israel would send Hamas to kingdom come and that it would deal Iran a big defeat, destroy its nuclear program, and instigate regime change in Tehran. The Shia-Sunni split and Fundamentalist vs Modernist split and regular ethnic rivalries Turk vs Arab, Kurd vs Turk, Persian vs Arab are all in play. It is a region of civil war and failed nation states.
Not so curiously, none of them want to take a single Palestinian refugee.
Jews from many parts of the world are encountering rising anti-Semitism and fleeing to Israel. The Hamas attack has unified the country at least for a while. The unruly pro-Hamas demonstrations are angering Western and European citizens.
More likely scenario is a clampdown on immigration and mass deportation in the West and Europe. Also expect moves by Abraham accord Arab nations and Eastern European countries to strengthen ties with Israel assuming Israel is given enough room to crush Hamas.
Arab states might have their internal conflicts, but they are all united in their hatred for Israel. If any such incidents of attacks(ethnic cleansing) on Muslims occur in Europe that are sponsored by their governments, we will unleash jihadi groups all over Europe. Middle East dollars will bankroll the Jihad, and Pakistan's intelligence agencies will train the jihadis, like we did in Afghanistan against USSR. Maybe some rogue Pakistan army general will leak nuclear weapons to such militant proxies as a Kamikaze attack, or a nuclear suicide attack if you want to call it.
Your sclerotic and aging civilization does not threaten Muslims. If you want war, you will get it. We will destroy Europe. Try it.
If the Islamic world had its shit together to that degree, European colonization would never have happened.
Pakistan only exists because the British threw you a bone.
Israel already won the war of attrition dude - Egypt and Jordan made their peace with Israel, as did Morocco and Bahrain. Syria and Lebanon have no interest in going to war with Israel, and the Saudis hate Iran more than they hate Israel.
Iran's policy will fail because the Shias can't fight the Sunnis and the Jews at the same time.
You have to go back.
Go back to where, child killer?
Don't take my word for it.
Feel free to read the Qu'ran and hadiths, research the historical contexts, and listen to Muslim scholarly opinions (that is, the majority view) on "Jihad" for yourself.
No-one wants to read your crummy texts. While all religions suffer with profound, perhaps irreconcilable, challenges from geology, archaeology, textual criticism, physics etc., Islam always was a stupid religion for stupid people, a psycho bandit playing a confidence trick on dumb desert people that got out of hand. No nation with an IQ of 100 or above has ever adopted Islam and none ever will because it's just dumb. Whatever the Creator of the Universe is up to, he isn't going to give personal revelations to a prophet telling him he can have ever more sexual liaisons in contravention of societal norms.
You have to go back.
You can read a library worth of texts on Islam and its history and not come to a more concise, albeit crude, statement of truth.
no jewland in levant sorry
Nobody buys that dude, and I am saying it as somebody that supports a 2 state solution and removal of Israelis from the occupied territories.
These Sufi-type interpretations do not fit well with mainstream Sunnism, nor with history-based interpretations of Islam.
Just make peace that holy war is a thing in Islam, just as it is in Christianity (once upon a time), and Judaism.
Your "go to mosque" argument is void. Imams are very diverse, and few would talk openly with kaffir that are not there to revert.
I'm a Sunni. This is literally mainstream Sunni ideology that I was taught...
That might be true, cause Sunnis are not a cohesive group either. The Sunni of Bosnia are not the same as those in Pakistan.
But it's also a diluted version that's unbound from the history of Islam and how the word has been used and understood by the Prophet and his companions.
The spiritual, self-improvement version does exist too. But also the religious war one.
And that's fine. We're on a violent planet that has not been able to transcend war, which has become very clear the last years.
The word Jihad is theologically pretty much identical to the term "crusade".
Sometimes it can mean a more abstract struggle, like "Elon Musk is on a free speech crusade".
But crusade can also mean, well, crusade. Muslims in the middle-east who still refer to Europeans as crusaders know exactly what they mean by that.
Saad,
Unfortunately, rarely does " do not kill innocents" pan out during a war.
You can have your book or any other book, for no matter what verse you quote, what word is written,they all get lost in the fog of war.
I'm just saying that Islam itself is very clear on these matters.
If some group of Muslims want to take an extreme/twisted interpretation of the words then there is likely something else going on, not related to religion at all.
1) Prior to the formation of Israel, Jews lived in Palestine without any issues.
2) After Israel, you slowly start to see a rise in these extreme groups and ideologies in that region. And especially after
Given these two statements, is it the case that Muslims are taught to hate others no matter what? or is it more likely that people in that region have been abused to the point of becoming radicalized?
So there is no directives to Kill Jews?
Just Asking?
Because about a month ago there was an already convicted Imam , in Montreal, in front of Twenty Thousand Muslims in Montreal, Quoting the hadith, im sure your familiar with the verse(s) ???
So you want to go down that road?
Fine
Some Muslims you say.?
Fir starters.
Please Provide Percentages
Apostacy?
Homosexuals?
Blasphemy?
Caliphate?
Witchcraft?
Pre Covid
Im walking down Ste Catherine Street
It was some Jewish gathering, independence day,or something , I Don t remember,what I do remember, Is this old Jewish couple walking down the Street, getting screamed at,insulted , and best yet spat on, imagine that.
Guess who was doing the spitting?
Looked to be no more than fourteen fifteen mabey sixteen. Calling them Putain, lots of French Arabs here.
So Saad, how is it that Jews that have lived here for over a hundred years, enduring Christian Hate and Racisim, that were barred, from many university programs, from the YMCA till the sixties and seventies , from Golf Courses...
Tell me Saad did these Jews,
Build families, business, followed the legal statutes, build hospitals that in this day and age , employ Muslim Doctors, Staff, take care of Muslim patients, aid in building the city,
Who never ever in my Sixty Seven Years , have ever seen Jews Rejoice at the Killing Of Arabs, never mind Palestinians. Never Ever Ever. Who never gloat at the pain of others.
So Saad, tell me who or how many is a few? Or some, Saad. PLEASE
FYI: Im not Jewish , and we have muslims in our family, through intermarrying.
Take a deep breath brother, I'm not your enemy here. I'm also a fellow Canadian actually - and proud to be one.
It's true there are some extreme people in our faith, and these voices are often extra loud in times like this. It's also true that there are some countries where extremist thought is more widespread (I'm Pakistani-born, so i know). This is unfortunate and something all Muslims need to be more vocal about.
However, I don't think we should be using personal anecdotes from our life to generalize a whole group of people. Otherwise, I also have dozens of examples of people spitting on Muslims in my community, Israeli settlers celebrating the death of babies, etc etc.
If you want to see how people are treated in *actual* Muslim societies, read about the early caliphates, and how the Jews lived vs. under Christian rule
I would encourage you to also visit mosques, or just make more Muslim friends. Figure out for yourself whether majority Muslims believe in any kind of "directive to kill jews". There are also plenty of great youtube videos by respected scholars/teachers like Yasir Qadhi and Nouman Ali Khan, who talk all about Islamic laws and theology regarding a multitude of issues that you bring up (apostasy, blasphemy, etc).
Peace
Thank you Saad,
I will try to answer best I can.
I agree with most of your assessment, I also know that in all my sixty seven years, of living in Montreal, have never ever seen kids spitting on older people, but then again.....
In terms of interactions with muslims, in my previous job, i. worked with quite a few muslim Co- workers, salt of the earth, wonderful , I would and have helped them and they would have helped me.
I also know about Muslim Hate, unfortunately, I found out about this when my cousins son started calling looking for money, my cousins son said it was for lawyers, his dad had been arrested for assault and threats to Muslims in Alberta.
I then googled his name and said WTF
We have a white supremacist in the family, I believe his son is as well. Like father like son? Ignorant.
An ignorant muslim hating rascist.
Part of an evil group that stretches through parts of Canada.
Is this what my grandfather fought for in the second world war?
As for religion, it is a large part of why we are in this position right now. The responsibility is with all religions not just one singular religion. It just so happens that at the moment, Radical Islam is the Religion that poses the greatest threat to stability in the world.
As for preachers on you tube, you have many, of all faiths preaching and quoting from this book this passage , god says this , the phropet says don't , It really doesn't add up to diddly.
One question Saad, when the Israelis were slaughtered or butchered on Oct 7th, name me one country where Arabs or Arab muslims condemned the acts, and throw in as well,the jew hating universities, and their professors.
Many deny that it happened, some even say it was the Israelis themselves.
No, they rejoiced and paraded saying praise be to God,Allah if you will.
Im writing this to you from Quebec City,
Where six muslim men were murdered and others paralyzed,and wounded, by a white supremacist. Canada was stunned, the mourning was across the country, except mabey my cousin and his sick cohorts who were gleefully praising this act of terror.
Were Québécois/ Quebecers parading in the streets? No, Canadians No, The family in London run down by that now convicted sick bastard. Canadians cheering No.
Saad, you never answered the questions that i posed in the last interaction.
Any who young man
Happy Friday!
Enjoy
If your Grand Parents were pushed from their Land, your Parents humiliated on a daily basis, Oncles, Siblings and Friends to be killed, you would not need an Ideology to hate.
Israelis who lose beloved ones do not need to believe in the „Erez Israel“ Ideology of Netanyahu to hate Palestinians, it is a human Reaction.
Not necessarily the best but it does not need any „Überbau“.
It is an ongoing War about Land first and Religion second, Hate is a Product of it.
In Northern Ireland there was a War between Catholics and Protestants, a very bloody War, that was much more a Bloodshed because of Ideology than the Conflict about Land in Israel/Judäa/Samaria/Palestinia and was only solved through Help and Pressure from the Outside.
Whether this might Help in this Case I do not know, but to believe, that this War is more about Religion and Jihad than Land is ignorant.
Northern Ireland was wildly different. It was trendy to draw that comparison in the 90s, but civilians were never widely targeted (and when they were, everyone tried to disavow involvement), and the total death toll was actually quite low.
But the Brutality inflicted was no less horrible.
Civilans were not targeted? There were no regular Army’s.
You (and the Palestinians) are preaching from a hymn book with half the pages ripped out. You are proving the author’s point.
I am luckily not religious and I have no such Book.
I agree that the dispute is about land. I'm saying that jihadism is an entirely different thing from revenge.
To make clear: There was not more Bloodshed in Northern Ireland as my clumsy Grammar might imply. It was Bloodshed because of Ideology opposite to Bloodshed for Land.
The Troubles in Northern Ireland were resolved, albeit imperfectly, with a political agreement.
One can't enter into a political agreement with people committed to kill their opponents. The only alternative is war, if one's family, country, and society are to survive.
Since the Murder of Rabin through an Israeli Right Wing Terrorist; Benjamin Netanyahu did nothing for a 2 State Solution. Anyone who claims different is highly ignorant.
The Erez Israel Movement wants Israel from the Sea to the River.
The Settlement of the Westbank is aided by Terror by Settlers.
These Settlers do not want Peace, neither does Hamas.
If the real issue was jihad in Israel/Palestine, why was the PLO a multi-religious organization at its inception? There were Christian and Socialist members. Sounds like you, like Richard, know next to nothing about the history of the conflict?
I don't know shop much about the history of the conflict, I guess no more than someone who grew up with it in the background on the news. But it nevertheless strikes me that there are two factors here which will likely shift the dynamic towards Israel leaving the region.
1. The rise of jihad
2. The loss of US hegemony
Agree about Jihad.
This too is impressive framing.
A problem: young, wired in people are onto this game.
First of all, it seems to me that this is the best article, or at least one of the best articles I have read on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and I have read thousands.
However, carrying out ethnic cleansing in the Palestinian territories will be very difficult and morally controversial. Moreover, no country will volunteer to absorb Palestinian refugees, and rightly so. The realistic model is autonomy for the Palestinians, where they will not live under occupation in most respects, but with absolute security control by the IDF, which will prevent terrorism from raising its head. Before the terrible mistake of the Oslo Accords in 1993, in which Yitzhak Rabin gave the terrorists territory adjacent to the center of Israel, fewer Palestinians were killed in all 25 years of occupation than are killed in typical 2-3 days of this war.
Strong IDF security control combined with Palestinian civil autonomy that will provide economic prosperity is a reasonable combination, and if the international community wakes up and realizes that this is the best deal, life will be bearable. In 2020, 3 people were killed in Israel by Palestinian terrorism. It is possible to stabilize the death toll at such numbers, even without absolute solutions.
I believe the most effective approach combines the utmost Palestinian despair regarding national achievements with the greatest Palestinian hope for personal successes - such as economic success, family support, and career development. Among Arab citizens of Israel, despite prevalent hatred towards Israel, many are outstanding doctors who impartially treat injured soldiers. This happens because they concentrate on their personal lives, and Israeli security forces prevent the formation of a national structure that could engage them in conflict.
"I believe the most effective approach combines the utmost Palestinian despair regarding national achievements with the greatest Palestinian hope for personal successes - such as economic success, family support, and career development. "
This is absolutely true, but the Oslo process cannot be simply undone without killing tens of thousands of people.
This is a bit of digression, but I think it's important to state clearly why Oslo was such a disaster. It wasn't just the idea of using a terrorist paramilitary as a security proxy; it's the fundamental idea that there can be a compromise with Palestinian nationalism when Palestinian nationalism has no meaning whatsoever except as the antithesis of Zionism. There has never been anything that makes a Arab in Nablus, an Arab in the Galilee, and and Arab in Gaza the same nation (distinct from Jordanians, Syrians, Egyptians etc.) except that these were the lands claimed by Zionists. Even a Palestinian nationalist who is personally willing to compromise on two states cannot but teach irredentism to his children.
I recently listened to a talk by Rashid Khalili and he mentioned that consciousness of the Nakba was much greater among Palestinians today than it has ever been, even though the generation that lived through it is mostly dead. The Naqba experienced by Palestinians was essentially an agglomeration of bad things that happened to people (and, of course, many of them were perfectly aware that it was the outcome of a war they had been eager to fight). The Naqba that Palestinians have learned about in school is something that happened to 'a' people. Palestinian national identity is literally inseparable from the desire to destroy Israel. Every generation of Palestinians is more hostile because the Palestinian idea is more deeply embedded in their identity.
So to return to where I started, there is no way to make peace without liquidating Fatah, the PLO, Hamas, every school, every youth group, everything. And even then it might not be enough. Sometimes 'a crooked thing cannot be made straight'.
"Palestinian national identity is literally inseparable from the desire to destroy Israel. Every generation of Palestinians is more hostile because the Palestinian idea is more deeply embedded in their identity."
Sounds like Israel should have made peace long ago then, instead of continuously building settlement that make a 2 state solution impossible.
You should probably just rename your account, 'the Cathedral'. The Palestinian identity to which I refer is most strongly inculcated where there are no settlers, namely Gaza, and area A of West Bank. It is most weakly inculcated where there the most settlers, namely inside Israel. It is somewhere in the middle in area C where all the hoo-hah is about.
Israel cannot make peace with Palestinian nationalist groups, because Palestinian nationalism has no content beyond anti-Zionism. It cannot make peace with individual Palestinians because that is not a real thing that can actually happen. It can make peace with other Arab states. It can, to some extent ,make peace with various Palestinian clans, but this is made near impossible at present by the authority of Palestinian nationalist groups over these clans.
Gaza is an open air prison where Israel controls what goes in and out, including people. It also has bombed their critical infrastructure in past operations. And it shoots anyone who comes within 100 meters of the fence line. To pretend like they were left to their own devices is utterly dishonest Hasbara gaslighting.
Oh look, Cretin of the Cathedral bringing those edgy takes that otherwise I would have to go to the Washington Post for.
Try to actually think for a second. What I said was that hatred of Israel among Palestinians is inversely proportional to the amount of settlers in their midst. Your comment doesn't address that at all and attacks some other unrelated argument. You appear to think you are arguing against a normie Hasbara account. If you want to do that, I'm sure there are plenty you can find.
Ah yes, the Washington Post, who publish Israeli 5th columnists like Jen Rubin and Max Boot. They totally agree with me.
And my point is germane to yours if you try to actually think outside of your ethnonarcisist frame for a second. The people with the worst standard of living, and least freedom (i.e. Gaza), are the most violent. The people with the best standard of living and freedom (Israeli Arabs), are the least violent. And the West Bank is in the middle, where your distinction of Area A vs. C doesn't have a ton of evidence. I'm guessing the Jews who were able to avoid the Ghettos in the 1930's were a lot less violent than those in places like the Warsaw ghetto.
They withdrew from Gaza completely. And it's Gaza that attacked them. What do settlements in the West Bank have to do with Gaza?
They withdrew from Gaza and locked the gates behind them, shot anyone who came within 100 meters of the fence, and completely control what gets in and out.
If they actually had complete control of what gets in or out of Gaza, the Oct 7th attacks couldn't have happened. Gaza, of course, has a border with Egypt that Israel does not control.
The European Union Border Assistance Mission at the Rafah Crossing Point manages that border, and Israel has the right to challenge anyone who crosses in either direction.
So, what is your Final Solution?
I don't believe there is a solution. Israel should just try and keep a lid on things, avoiding wars that it can't win (which is basically all of them) while trying to stop paramilitaries building up military infrastructure on its borders and making peace where possible with Arab countries. In essence, Netanyahu's policy of the last 20 years was the right one, including the bits that have been labelled - unfairly but not entirely without cause - as propping up Hamas. It just wasn't executed very well, because Israel is a very dysfunctional country with appalling dysgenics and all the political chaos and incompetence that comes with it.
(Presumably, you are not looking for an answer, but rathe being very original and making an accusation of Nazism, but I think it's best to answer in good faith even questions that were not asked in it).
I was provoking a bit, but if I really wanted to be mean, I would not have asked with the Title of a US American Movie but used my native Language.
I do not believe that Israels Answer to the Murder of Rabin, by voting for the Program of his Israelian Murder was the good Choice by the People.
We all can see that the Corruption of Netanyahu combined with the Erez Israel „Landnahme“ Projekt undermines what Israel made Different from the Countries around it: Lawful Democracy.
And that your Netanyahu in his Egotism is a lousy Protector of Israel.
After the totally perverse Onslaught by Hamas, of whom I suspect always the Worst, I hoped Israel this Time would find the right Response, but with Bibi Netanyahu you knew the Chance was not so great.
In many States „Selfdefense“ is legal, but „Excessive Selfdefense“ in the most Cases not. And what the World sees now is a „Selfdefense Excess“ that ever more People see as Criminal.
And with this Selfdefense Excess the Next „Selfdefense Excess“ is guaranteed.
The Fact that Hamas has the Backing by a Lot of Gazaans is to a big Part the Guilt by the Politics of the Rabin-Killer executed by Bibi Netanyahu.
Your Illusions how the Palästinians could be „befriedet“ by making them the Subordinated Coolies of Jewish Israelis is not South African Apartheid but „Jim Crow“ in the Style of the USA.
Israel is not strong enough to Install such a Layered „Democracy for Jews only“ Programm in „Greater Israel“ without the Money from the USA.
But how long will US Americans see their Government spend so much Money for Israel.
You know you can count on the Collectiv Guilt Feeling of most Germans, but even in Germany many think that Israel in not want to be the Victim any longer, bullies to many Palästiniens to much and to strong.
I was 11 Years old at the Time of the Olympic Games of Munich and was shocked by the Terror in these Days
and I have no Understanding for People who understand Suicide-Attacks. I despise People who send their Children and Young People into Suicide.
I despise the Hamas but I allow myself to despise Bibi Netanyahu and I do not understand why Israel still wants to be lead by this Criminal.
You're rambling a bit (I recommend paragraphs), but I'll address one issue because it seems to be a source of widespread confusion outside Israel.
Israel isn't fighting a brutal war in Gaza with massive civilian casualties because of Bibi, but because of the centrists Gantz and Gallant who are determining strategy along with their likeminded colleagues who run the army. The Israeli centrist view is that Israel should withdraw from territory where possible to shed the cost of occupying Palestinians, but on condition that if Palestinians attack, Israel should attack back with full military force, making no allowance for Palestinians being poor, incompetent and frankly pretty crazy. Netanyahu is definitely a criminal, but he is also absolutely the most war-averse politician in Israel because he correctly sees war as undermining his two strategic priorities of locking in American support and making peace with Arab countries. To reiterate what I said, though Bibi's plan of keeping a lid of things has obviously utterly failed, I still believe it was the best option on the table.
I am rambling a bit, coz English is not my Mothertongue.
But the Advice, to leave Space is a good one.
That the „Middle“ is following the Ideology of the Rabin Murderer is not lost on me.
But on the Day Israel voted for the first Time for Bibi Netanyahu the „Two State Solution“ became „A Lie told to the West“.
The West Bank Settlers knew that their
„Erez Israel“ Project will only be verbally Rejected.
Their wish of an Israel from the „Sea to the River“ had always the Backing by the Governments and a big Part of the People in Israel.
Since I am not religious I won‘t go for religious Claims for the Land.
Since in Modern Days, Jewishness is not only defined by Religion but also by Descent, which People in Germany who where not Jewish for quite a long Time were faced by Adolf Hitler and the Nazis.
For them Jews were by Descent „Semitic“ and therefore belonging to a Minor Race, belonging to Hebrews, Arabs, Syrians, Ethiopians and Phoenicians.
It is really astonishing how Defenders of Israel today, call any Enemy of Israel „Antisemitic“.
The Term was pushed up by German Racists in the 19th Century and it did definitively include Palestinians.
Only US American Woke Talk started to use this Word in a Way that calls
Palestinian Muslim Selfhaters.
The Reason is simple:
It should be implied that Palestinians hate Jews for the same Reasons as White Europeans: Racism!
But it is a War for Land first and for Religion second.
It is Anti-Israelic and Anti-Jewish but not Antisemitic.
It is about Time this Term invented by German Racists gets thrown over Board.
The Conflict is „Intra-Semitic“ as the Conflict between France and Germany was Intra-Franconian.
The richest City in Switzerland is Zürich, the biggest County is Zürich.
There are quite a Lot of People in Switzerland who detest or hate People from Zürich for similar Reasons as Europeans hate Jews.
But nobody would call these People „Antiswiss“
We both know that Wars makes Facts:
So Israel in the Boarders of 1967 without the Westbank, Gaza and the Golan is Israel, as hard as this feel some Palestinians, but Gaza, the Golan and the Westbank is not.
If Israel wants its Country from the Sea to the River the Price is an ongoing War for Land.
Don‘t lie about it, it is not Antisemitism.
Reserve that for those who are Antisemites: Germans, Anglosaxons, Poles, Russians, nearly all other Europeans.
Or live with the Fact that People might call Israels Aggression towards Palestinians „Antisemitism“.
Do not tell me that Sloppy US American College Talk can define Racist German Term.
In the USA they say Billion to a Milliard.
And they call Socialists Liberals.
So their Lingo does not help.
Fact is:
Erez Israel wants all the Land from the Sea to the River, no matter how many other „Semites“ live their.
Be honest about it!
"Civil autonomy" is useless when you're under blockade, particularly as a small country with few natural resources. Even a country with as productive a citizenry as Singapore would be poor without access to maritime trade. Gaza is economically hopeless as long as its blockaded, and I'm guessing you're not calling for an end to the Israeli blockade, so 'civil autonomy' is pretty much useless.
Israeli here. Westerners know very few details about the conflict and even Richard falls to obviously false HAMAS-reported numbers of civilian deaths - HAMAS rules in Gaza and only HAMAS is the source of all "official" Gazan numbers. They come with incredible precision like fake 471 dead after attack on hospital which was HAMAS missile falling early. No, there are no 16 000 dead in Gaza - all terrorist groups are liars.
A million Arabs live in "mainland" Israel itself, i.e. outside Palestinian Autonomy (PA) and Gaza. There are lots of problems among their own community like incredible mafia violence killing even children (UM silent as usual) and complex relations with Jewish people but, for example, half of medical school graduates are Arabs and a 1/4 of nurses. At hospital your doctor very will be an Arab and it works. They have their own parties (both hate each other!) and parliament members. By the way, many Arabs are Christians - in Nazareth 30% are.
And the largest issue - the Jordan Valley is the place where Jews and Judaism appeared at least 2850 years ago (earliest inscription on the wall by invading king). Not allowing Jews live where Motherland is has only one name -racism - which is now policy of Democratic Left in US. Hilarious.
As it concerns Muslim support of Gaza - support is among the ordinary people but they do not decide anything in the Middle East (or decide very little). Every Muslim knows who orchestrated 7/10 (Iran and Russia), why (prevent Abraham's Accords be signed with S.Arabia) and even Hezbollah does not really jump into the boat.
The recent extraordinary meeting of Muslim states had shown no real support for Gaza and actually said "Be strong! We are together!", nothing else when full boycott of Israel was planned. S.Arabia confirmed they are still in contact with Israel.
So the most of damage is done by "useful idiots" mainly in US being openly pro-HAMAS. They are the sheep to be slaughtered for HAMAS as tragically loudest pro-Palestinian voice in Israel Viviene Silver was killed at home at her Kibbutz when every attacker knew who was she...
Ignorance, stupidity, naivety, hopeless unrealistic idealism - I do not know how to call this Western disease.
I found this post interesting and enlightening. I would like to propose that we stop seeing and promoting Palestinians as "refugees. "
I will use a true anecdote to illustrate why: when my mother-in-law, a Korean born in what is now North Korea in the late 1940's, fled the north during the Korean War with her family, her father bribed/paid a fleeing truck driver to take his family as far south as possible. Her mother made sure to leave only with the clothes on her back, and she carried a large sewing machine.
Why the sewing machine? Because her mother knew that she was not going to be a "refugee." For a refugee, there is always hope of going back. She was going to be a "migrant" with her family in the south. They knew they were not going back. They were going to make a living in what is now South Korea. My mother in law immigrated to the US, and did very well as a dress designer, eventually having her own company that made high end dressers.
The world needs to stop accepting the narrative of Palestinians as refugees. Multiple wars have led to decreasing land for this Palestinian state project, and not only have Palestinian leaders failed, but the regional Arabs and the UN have also failed Palestinians by promoting the ghetto-ization of Palestinians by making them depending on foreign aid to keep them as refugees rather than as migrants.
They need to take the sewing machine and create a world for themselves, rather than live for the hatred of Israel.
> create a world for themselves, rather than live for the hatred of Israel.
That's tough when you have no control over your own borders. Gaza is under total land, air, and sea blockade; they are not free to trade with other nations for the resources they need to develop.
Maybe if they didn't constantly use every chance they get to attack or to gather materials for attacking later on, then the controls wouldn't be so strict.
And maybe if the Israeli government gave Palestinian leaders incentives to not attack, they would stop. Fatah in the West Bank ended all arrmed resistance against Israel, and the West Bank was "rewarded" with settler violence, land seizures, and military checkpoints. Israel has for decades punished the moderate faction of the Palestinians while rewarding Hamas extremists (allowing money transfers, pulling out all settlements from Gaza, etc). Netanyahu thought he could "control the height of the flames," unfortunately thousands of innocent Israelis paid the price.
You are free to pressurize their Egyptian "brothers" to open their side of the border for trade...
Egypt is free to manage its land borders how it likes (and so is Israel). Israel is not free to deny Gaza access to Gaza's own airspace and waters.
Access to maritime trade is worth far more.
Egypt has plenty of access to the sea...
He's talking about Gaza.
Didn’t Jewish families who fled Spain in 15th centuries keep keys from their homes? At least that’s what a guide in Seville told us. According to your logic, they followed a mirage.
Directionally, there's a lot of truth here. But a few points I'd take exception with:
1. While China's overwhelming force, and the immense power of the Chinese state, surely have something to do with the muted reaction to the Uighurs, I wonder how much is due to other factors.
The Uighurs are non-Arab, located in the remote northeastern corner of the Muslim world. And China is a more closed society and better able to manage the narrative, to keep negative imagery from escaping. Are there Uighur kids held in cages somewhere? Probably, with some quick Googling I can find this allegation made, but no pictures or video. There IS video of Palestinian children held in what look like chicken cages by Israelis (which, at the beginning of this war, was notoriously mislabeled as Israeli children being held by Palestinians).
Most people are basically innumerate, especially at the emotional level. A good video does more damage than any statistic could.
2. When it comes to the international community, the hatred of Israel is more linear. Though it should be clear here that "linear" here is really logarithmic, because per my point about innumeracy, it's not the number that's influencing people, it's the imagery that that number produces.
Killing 2,000 vs. 1,000 civilians doesn't double your level of opposition, I don't even think killing 10,000 vs. 1,000 does. The number is probably somewhere between 10,000 and 100,000.
Also the "International Community" clearly needs to be modeled in discrete groups, with different functions for what it would take for them to hate Israel. Something like: Arabs > non-Arab Muslims and Marxists (including Woke) > rest of world > Americans.
There is some level of Israeli violence that would make even US Boomer Republican support decrease somewhat. Though support for Israel would never drop to zero worldwide, just as support for Palestinians would never drop to zero, even in the event of one side systematically exterminating the other entirely.
Some great points here
I want to add one observation to the China/Uighur thing.
China has engaged in persecutions of Christians. Including committing a really gross offense: working on a substantially rewritten Party-approved Bible. Now, a number of Christians in the West have written about this and complained. There are actually a lot of Christians in the West that have spent time in China as missionaries; I'm personally acquainted with at least four such families. I know Christians who have advocated a much more hostile foreign policy towards China largely because of its treatment of Christians.
So while from where I'm sitting, it seems Christians in the West care more about this issue than Arab Muslims care about the Uighurs, I can't escape the feeling that if all this was happening in the West, we Christians would be FAR more incensed. Finland tried twice, and failed twice, to prosecute a Christian politician for hate speech for arguing that marriage is between a man and a woman. And even though, as Western places go, Finland is pretty remote and weird, that one event just strikes much, much closer to home than anything happening in China.
Some of this is that events happening in what we once thought of as "Christendom" strike us harder. But I'd also argue that, as foreign and faraway places go, China is ESPECIALLY alien, and therefore we are ESPECIALLY emotionally detached from it. I imagine this is as true for Arabs as it is for Westerners.
China has a history and culture that we're generally not educated on. If you've so much as heard of "Water Margin", you're well into the 99th percentile. We can't even keep Chinese names straight. Their tonal language sounds bizarre to our ears far beyond most non-Indo-European languages, like the speakers might not even have the same set of human emotions as us. Their moon-script is perplexing far beyond any alphabet-based system, even Arabic.
So, I'd contend that for the average Westerner OR Arab, emotionally-speaking, events happening in China are more or less happening on Mars. Or at least the moon.
During the Civil War, General Sherman's destruction of property of the Old South's elite during his March to the Sea and his northern advances through the Carolinas were designed to crush the Southern Classes hope for any type of true resurgence of the Old South. This was as much real destruction of property as it was a moral and psychological defeat. Likewise, the Palestinian mind has to face the reality that the insistence on the Right of Return and the denial of the right of Israel to exist can only mean an expulsion of the Palestinians from the Levant and/or their destruction. A war between the Palestinians and the Israelis will not end well for the Palestinians.
Um, the conventional wisdom - mostly correct - though is that Reconstruction was basically a failure; the North tried and failed to crush the Old South, and realized it wasn't willing to pay the price of permanent large scale occupation to force the south to abide by the new amendments, so instead it left them alone for 100 years until the south changed oragnically due to economic development.
That analogy doesn't work. Sherman's march was purely military in order to force the CSA government to collapse and surrender. Southern hatred for the North continued for decades through failed Reconstruction and a mini civil war involving carpetbaggers and lynch mobs. The South was placated not through destruction but through a gentleman's agreement that slavery was done for but all other questions of civil rights and Northern/Midwestern liberalism would not be forced on the South, and the South could rig its own elections as much as it wanted. That agreement was essential to creating an incredibly disparate yet ultimately victorious political bloc where Northern Jews, Blacks, Irish, etc could all happily and with calm of mind vote for the same national candidates that Southern Klansmen would vote for, knowing that whatever their sociocultural differences, they were irrelevant to one another.
Israel is doing the exact opposite of that by ensuring Palestine has no real political autonomy nor control of its own economy. Palestine has been suffering a nearly 80 year failed Reconstruction.
But all of that hinged on the 'gentleman's agreement that slavery was done for' which required the South to acknowledge they lost the war.
The Palestinians haven't taken that step yet - they'd need to acknowledge that 'right of return' is done for.
I don't know what you mean by "acknowledge"; surely you don't believe that some Palestinian authority says "Ok we lost now please give our land back" and then Israel agrees. The South lost the war; Northerners continued to occupy and control their state governments and land to varying degrees until the Compromise of 1877. It should be noted that Northern occupation of the South in the period of 1865 to 1877 was far less harsh and destructive to families than Israel's occupation has been in Palestine. Defeat can be taken on the chin, but displacement and humiliation will inevitably inspire terrorism.
In fairness to Israel, the one thing they seem to be doing right to pacify issues is giving Palestinians tons of junk food and making them obese. Although overt terrorism in the South rapidly died with the end of Reconstruction, some degree obviously persisted all the way up through the Civil Rights Acts; historic/familial grudges die hard. However, the rise of the moonpie-eating sportsball-watching Bubba seems to be the phenotype that best coincides with Southerners becoming tame and racially egalitarian. More welfare, more sugar, more porn, this is what Palestinians need. That's what makes Hanania so frustrating sometimes; picking the high-competency center-liberal road has never been more clear than in the case of Palestine, yet it's on this long-failed issue that extreme-right genociders are being placated.
It's more that some Palestinian authority says "OK we lost now please let us have more autonomy in the land we've still got left" and then Israel gradually agrees if the Palestinians can behave themselves and not launch any attacks.
Israel's occupation has been "harsh and destructive" because the Palestinians are still fighting a war they lost decades ago.
If the Confederacy was still trying to bushwhack their way to victory in 1892, the north would be increasingly ratcheting up the destruction trying to make the message sink in that slavery is done for.
"The Irrationality of Anti-Israeli Sentiment" would be better titled as "The Irrationality of a classic Straw Man characterization of Anti-Israeli Sentiment".
That the pro-Israel case always consists of substantial lies and meme magic has not gone unnoticed on TikTok, and if you look at the popularity of various hashtags there, Israel is FOR ONCE losing the meme war (by at least a 10x margin), and dominance of the memetics sphere has always been their secret weapon. Most of the pro-Palestinian people seem to have also simultaneously lost their Pavlovian reaction to the most powerful weapon of all: the term "anti-Semite".
If this trend holds, some analysts are projecting Israel will lose US public support in about 10 years. Israel will still presumably control US politicians due to their top notch lobbying (and perhaps the Epstein kicker), but if that should ever break, being alone surrounded by enemies in the Middle East isn't going to be a pleasant experience for someone with Israel's track record.
Best of luck to you and your strategy, Israelis! :)
How old are you? You strike me as someone in their late teens or early 20s who just got into politics and has been consuming a lot of internet content on it. I see many of the same signs of when I was young and stupid.
I am 53 Richard, and if you would like to engage me in a public debate so we can discover the truth of our relative intelligence, levels, I'm your man.
A friendly warning though: I've locked horns with literally thousands of people like you, but I'd be surprised if you've ever even encountered a single instance of someone like me.
I'm working in the office today so will be mostly offline for the next 10 hours or so, but I will be available after that to light you up.
Let's proceed, there are few things I love more than a spectacle!
In the meantime, here is something to chew on:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/perception-problem/
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/psychology-normative-cognition/
This is a good opportunity for you to point out that "I seem like" a first year philosophy student (a standard normative reaction to philosophical ideas). Except, I suspect you are well smart enough to see the folly in that move in this particular context.
If Israel can crush Hamas and deter Iran, it will emerge from this struggle much stronger. There are a host of Arab Sunni leaders who are hoping Israel wins, notwithstanding public denunciations. The Arab world is fractured between Shia and Sunni, between Jihadis and Royalist/Secular/Military segments. The Arabs are also not so fond of Turkish or Persian domination. Israel is a useful counterweight. After the Abraham accords, Israel has more Arab and Islamic support than it did in the 1970’s. Israel trounced armies far larger than 100k in its wars in 1948, 1967, and 1973. Jordanians may not like Israel, but they need to drink water and the deal trading Jordanian solar generated electricity for Israeli desalinated water is too much in everyone’s interest to be derailed by Hamas and Iran. This larger locus of mutual benefit is what you are missing.
"If Israel can crush Hamas and deter Iran,"
Deter Iran from what? Giving a pittance of their national income to groups that antagonize their adversaries?
In the short run the idea is to deter escalation by Hezbollah, the Houthi, and Iran to prevent the current Israel -Hamas war from getting out of hand. But the larger goal is to deter Iran from terrorist and aggressive expansion and deter it from developing a nuclear weapon and ballistic missile delivery systems for it. The deterrence is the threat of a few dozen bunker busters which would set back the nuke program to near zero. The threat is of a week or two of a coordinated air campaign that would decimate Iranian air defenses and its air forces. Iranian port facilities and oil fields would then be vulnerable. A lot of Iranians really like Israel it is said. So the trick is to do maximum damage to the theocracy and minimum damage to the people. It’s not the monetary cost to Iran that is the deterrent. It’s the realization they could be attacked and hurt.
This is a neocon wet dream. An all out assault on Iran would close the straights of Hormuz and oil would be $200/barrel. That's not to mention the fact that there are dozens of US bases within Iranian missile range, as well as Israel itself. And don't make me laugh with Iron Dome. It can barely deal with a bunch of homemade bottle rockets shot off by Hamas.
Not an all out assault. But the US can destroy Iranian air defenses, air bases, nuclear facilities, and naval bases.The advantages of stealth, precision guidance, and signals jamming are very significant. Basically Iran would be fighting blind. After such an opening stage campaign by the US, it would be Iran that would want to descalalate and cool things down.
And Iran could in turn destroy US bases in the Middle East and Israel itself, plus shut down the straights of Hormuz. Then what? Ground invasion?
Here is just one standard run of the mill example:
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM6JvpN3r/
Notice how this Normie has also picked up on democracy being fake, the negative economic aspects of US support of Israel, etc.
The Normies awakening from their hypnosis is not good news for Israel, and every single counter PR meme campaign that Israel launches is met with thousands of counter TikToks, literally mocking the utterly transparent lies.
I think this is a very interesting period of history to live in. Luckily for me I won't have to live through the next phase like Israelis will have to. Perhaps they can change course and try making peace for a change, but cultural change is not easy.
Most Americans are still pro-Israel. And TikTok is indeed dumb. Video content is dumber than text content, and short-form video dumber than longer form. Hence smartphones becoming popular shortly before "the Great Awokening".
Most boomers are, but younger people are either indifferent, or hostile to, Israel. You think you're going to convince a majority nonwhite America to give two shits about the Holocaust? Or some spat in the Middle East?
Another:
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM6Jcu7Th/
Observe how smart young people are, observe how easily TikTok can slice through the standard tricks mainstream media uses to control people's perception of reality.
If anyone here isn't on TikTok (because it's "just dumb teenagers dancing" or "just a waste of time, and the Chinese are going to steal your info" (memes which were also mocked relentlessly when the compromised US government tried to ban it based on deceit)) is missing out on the main show.
If the US government can't find a way to ban TikTok, I don't see how it isn't going to change the world for the better.
Check out this old guy:
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZM6JcHKaB/
Uh oh, seems like he's noticed our entire system is built on literal lies...let's hope that knowledge doesn't spread eh!
TikTok dissolves the artificial divisions that have been craftily constructed between members of the public like nothing else. And the speed of iteration is unprecedented, it's like agile in software development, except for human cognition.
It’s not about land. It’s about the Islamists belief it would be against their religion to allow a Jewish state to exist in the historic Jewish homeland. The Palestinian Arabs have rejected land compromises time and again, and never made a counter offer.
How do you explain the many Palestinian Christians who have willingly bled for the Palestinian Arab cause?
(Unlike today's internet posters, Israel's founders could not afford delusions. They fully understood the cause of Palestinian hatred: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Dayan%27s_eulogy_for_Ro%27i_Rothberg#Eulogy )
Christian Arabs are split and Israel has many kinds of Christians with differing opinions about Israel. But very few if any Christians are as fully rejectionist as Hamas. Fewer still are Hamas members. After all they know the Islamists view them as infidels.
But in the first post you were referring to all Palestinian Arab, which he correctly refuted. So now you move the goal posts?
I commend you for making a cogent argument without invective or insults. I think the point that needs to be made is that all the organizations representing Palestinian Arabs have rejected every land partition offer and given no counteroffers. The earlier Grand Mufti rejectionism of the 1930s was overtly pro-Nazi but later morphed into more of a Pan-Arabist opposition to having a non-Arab state. Later after several wars and decades, various Arab nations made peace with Israel. Within the Palestinian Arab population outside Israel, there have been various factions. The PLO was organized by the KGB in the 1960s as a secular umbrella organization to create a Palestinian national movement. After Oslo in the 1990s, the PLO was given administrative control of parts of Judea and Samaria, over 25 years it has never given a public land offer to settle final status and obtain Palestinian statehood. Hamas won an election and a civil war in Gaza. It is explicitly Islamist and refuses to negotiate any land deals with Israel. So the history is complicated. But the point remains:it is not a land dispute. It is that Arab rejectionists deny the right of a Jewish state to exist in the historic Jewish homeland. Since various Arab states have made peace with Israel, and the most bellicose opponents of Israel are Islamist, I believe it is accurate to say the most strident rejectionism now is largely Islamist. Under the Red-Green alliance, you will also see Western Woke progressives opposed to the existence of Israel.
Every "offer" you claim the Zionists made was either BS or heavily favored them. Why, in the 1930's or in 1948, should they have agreed to hand over a ton of land that non-Jews lived on to create an explicitly Jewish state?
And I do not defend of Hamas, which is why I was against Israel withholding the PLO's tax money to prevent them from effectively campaigning in that election. Likud loves Hamas, because they are a perpetual block in creating a Palestinian state, which Likud according their own charter believes is Israeli land.
This is just a bullshit Hasbara version of history. The Palestinians have never been offered a remotely realistic deal. Robert Malley was on the ground at Camp David and has written extensively about this.
What was "unrealistic" about the 1947 partition? If by "unrealistic" you just mean that they want a deal where the Arabs are given 100% of the territory, sure.
The 1947 partition was the UN's first major decision. The vote was intitially going to come in heavily against partition. So the count was stopped, vote postponed to Friday, and the US applied massive economic pressure to force everyone else in line. (This was just after WWII, when US economic dominance was at its peak because everyone else had been ruined by the war.) Even so, no nation within 1000 miles voted in favor.
The actual plan would have given >50% of the land to ~1/3rd of the population. Of course, Israel wasn't content with that, so they ethnically cleansed as much territory as possible, with next to no moral restraints (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_from_Lydda_and_Ramle, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre).
Events that happened 70 years ago, led by people now long-dead, shouldn't decide Israel's legitimacy in the present. That's no excuse to rewrite the history, though.
"Israel wasn't content with that" - No, it is the Arabs who were not content with that. The "ethnic cleansing" (expulsions) you're describing occurred during a war. Unless there was some Jewish conspiracy to make the Arabs start that war that I am unaware of.
> occurred during a war
Yes, war crimes generally occur during wars.
> it is the Arabs who were not content with that
Of course the Arabs weren't content with having their land and homes taken from them by force! You wouldn't have either, in their place, UN resolution or no.
So exactly like I said, the Arabs will never accept a two state solution, so there is no point negotiating one.
Jews only owned 10% of the land in Palestine at the time of the recommended partition, and the recommendation gave them over 50%. Of course they agreed to that, and the people who were at risk of being displaced rejected it. If my buddy declared that I get to have a 1/3 of your property, but you get to keep 2/3, would you accept that deal?
"Jews only owned 10% of the land" - It's remarkable the stuff people come up with to say about this. There was no Palestine for Israel to have 50% of until the partition plan was invented (i.e. they got 50% of a small arbitrary boundary, not 50% of the British mandate), and Jews were the majority population in that patchy land area because it was invented for them to be a majority in. You're telling me that if the Negev desert had been excluded from the partition, the Arabs all would've said "OK that's fine, we were concerned that your state was going to contain a disproportionate amount of land relative to your population"? Give me a break.
EDIT: Also, I checked just now and Jews were 22% of said arbitrary boundary, not 10%.
Nobody was at risk of being displaced until the entire Arab region attacked Israel over the partition plan. The displacement was the direct result of that war. The Arabs who live in Israel today are at no risk of being displaced. This issue is like a crucible for every form of prevarication available to the human mind. The Arabs don't accept a Jewish state because they don't accept it. This is obvious to everyone. I don't care if you don't accept it; go ahead, try to kill them and push them out and let the chips fall where they may. The talking points on this are like a virus that's evolved under intense selection selection pressure to slip between the cracks in soft-hearted white person's skull--because the whole plan hinges on gaining their sympathy so as to influence foreign policy about the region. Which I guess makes sense. I mean what the hell, it's the most logical tactic so keep using it.
"The talking points on this are like a virus that's evolved under intense selection pressure to slip between the cracks in a soft-hearted white person's skull--because the whole plan hinges on gaining their sympathy so as to influence foreign policy about the region."
OUCH!
The "Palestinians" may not know how to build a functioning state, but they sure know how to manipulate white liberals (which really isn't too hard once you realize white liberals are simply helpless against any claim or plea made by someone they consider brown and oppressed).
I'm no liberal. I'm just not a dumb boomercon, so the brain dead "The jews dindu nuttin part 204" and "they hate us/Israel for our freedums" doesn't work on me.
"You're telling me that if the Negev desert had been excluded from the partition, the Arabs all would've said "OK that's fine, we were concerned that your state was going to contain a disproportionate amount of land relative to your population"? Give me a break."
They likely would have said no since it would have meant displacing Arabs either way.
"Also, I checked just now and Jews were 22% of said arbitrary boundary, not 10%."
Who'd you check with, Benjamin Netanyahu?
"Nobody was at risk of being displaced until the entire Arab region attacked Israel over the partition plan."
This is just false history. The Arab nations did not invade until the Civil War between the Arabs in Palestine and the Zionists was well underway, which included massacres of Arabs like Deir Yassin.
Right, so like I said, they wouldn't have accepted anything. Was there a concern that making the entire thing an Arab state would "displace Jews"? No, of course not. They don't want a Jewish state there.
I checked with the Internet. It's in the UN docs and on Wikipedia. But I'm sure you have special alternative sources.
"The civil war was already underway" - over land and nationalism. There is no indication that the population would be displaced if there were no war, just as the Arabs who live in Israel are not displaced today. If you think displacement is a natural consequence of statehood under a majority ethnic group then the Jews could just say the same thing.
From 1947-67, Jordan had control of the West Bank including East Jerusalem, and Egypt had control of Gaza. They could have given the Palestinians a state with all the contested land. Why didn’t they get that deal?
Because Israel had exceeded their allotment of the UN-recommended partition in the war, and declaring a state would have tacitly accepted the land Israel took.
You argue like an Anglo-Saxon Neo Liberal Economy Professor before 2008.
First: Like them you use bad Nomenclatura:
Antisemitism was „introduced“ by German Racists to make clear that they despise Jews for belonging to the „Deficient Race“ of Semites and not for their Religion.
Which meant: Jews who became Christians were still Semites and therefore deficient.
Sure Antisemitism towards Jews in Germany was stronger since there were nearly no Arabs in Germany who could marry into the „Arian“ Bloodpool.
Now it happens that Muslim Arabs consider themselves to be Semites.
By calling their hatred towards Israel and/or Jews you call them Selfheaters.
In your „Herrenreiter“ Ignorance you do not care about that: But be aware others do.
You are using a „Bullshit Term“ used by Racist German Bullshitters to Name something that could be much easier described by the Words „Judenhass“ (Jewhater) and/or Israel Hater.
The Reason Muslim Arab Palestinians for sure have stronger „Reasons“ for hating Israel and/or Jews: Religion and War for Land.
Whether their Hate is justified in the evident Magnitude or not can be seen differently, but what is clear is that you as a „Philosophical Herrenreiter“ believe that the Solution to Israels Problem is to show the Muslim Arab Palestinians the Whip whenever they call for their Rights.
Put those „Untermenschen“ in their Place.
And finally make them hate themselves.
Let them become good „Weiningers“!
I have no Sympathy for Islam and not much for Palestinians and I despise the Hamas, but reading your Anglo-Saxon Neoliberal „Herrenreiter“ Crap makes clear that I cannot eat as much as I want to vomit when I think of People like you.
I do not know what your „Ethnicity“ or „Religion“ is but be assured „Übermenschen“ like you are disgusting.
Turn around, step down and become „Human“ again. If you can.
Just to clarify, it's the term "anti-semite' that is the source of your objection? Please be aware that the term has lost all of its original precision and now means "someone who is saying something that some Jews, especially those in the media, don't like". This includes folks like John Mearsheimer, whose crime was questioning whether or not the pro-Israel lobby was really advancing Israel's own interests.
Also, your German last name and German way of using English, along with an apparent allergy to anti-semiticism, rather prove Richard's point about the ability of the victors to brainwash the defeated.
I am a German with a Danish Mother living and born in Switzerland.
Therefore I know what Antisemitism means: Semites and therefore Hebrews and Arabs are „Less than Arians“.
The Corrumption that occurs to Words when used by US Americans is a given Fact: See the rebranding of the Word Liberalism as sort if Socialism or taking a Number like Milliard and call it Billion.
What you do not get is that Muslim Arabs themselves believe they are Sons of Shem and therefore Semites as the Hebrews are too.
So you tell this Arab who considers himself to be a Semite that he is an Antisemite just because you want to use that Word coined by German Racists?
Just because Anglo-American Sloppiness has obscured the real Meaning of this „German Word“ I do not have to be as sloppy Lazy as you want to be.
The Palestinians do not hate the Israelis because of Antisemitism but because of a War over Land.
As French and Germans used to hate each others because a War over Alsace.
I do know that many People want to break this down to „Ideology“ to not adress the „Material“ Matter: Land!
You have no idea what I do or don't get, but thanks for doubling down on demonstrating my point.
Don't like American usage? Stop reading it.
The anti-semitism meme is also rapidly losing its magical power. Not only that: many of those for whom it has lost its power have also noticed that Israel and their supporters (pundits, politicians, journalists, etc) habe been using magic on them for decades, and people tend to not be fans of such tactics.
I have three little letters for you. WMD. You've failed to take in to account that in today's world very small numbers of people can exert vast power far beyond their numbers. If Palestinians were to completely lose hope, what else have they got to lose? We can be assured that somebody will hand them a WMD suicide vest.
Even if every Jew in the world were to move to Israel (and most don't want to) Israel would still be too small a state, in too dangerous a neighborhood, to be sustainable.
The bottom line is not that Israelis are evil and all of that. It is instead that the founders of Israel made a fatal tactical error in WHERE they chose to build a Jewish state. The founders had good intentions, and have been remarkably capable in sustaining the tactical error, but that foundational tactical error remains a noose around the neck of Israel.
WMD. Sooner or later, that will be the conclusion to this story for all sides of the conflict. The smart people on both sides will get out of the region before that moment comes, and the unfortunate on all sides will fight to the death over a scrap of desert in one of the worst neighborhoods on Earth.
Roughly half of American marriages end in divorce. The Middle East is a horror show divorce in progress, and the divorce will be completed only when both parties have stabbed each other with broken bottles, and are bleeding to death on the bathroom floor.
Nobody will give them WMD. Governments did not give very powerful, expensive weapons to any prior terrorists.
Inshallah, Pakistan will handle them a WMD.
ahh here we are, an actual cheerleader for "genocide".
appreciate you taking off the mask
Copium.
what do you think why are suicide bombings are a relatively muslim concentrated activity lmao?
Lots of muslims are very fanatically devoted to Islam. Some big factions operate like communism ; ideology above all.
Is that "If God wills it..." or "I hope God wills it.."?
That guy talks like a caricature.
Times 1.6 billion and you've got the whole picture...
I hope God wills it.
The actual leaders of Pakistan play with Islamist movements and Tribal groups like little chess pieces knowing they can cut off their funding and supplies any time they want. The ISI certainly has great influence in Afghanistan. But with US withdrawal from Afghanistan, Pakistan is suddenly a lot less important to the US. Pakistan is facing an existential threat from India. China is a tactical friend of Pakistan and it doesn’t want random Islamists to get a WMD. The leaders of Pakistan are not wild extremists- they are sober and intelligent and wouldn’t risk giving anyone a WMD.
And similar to the Iranian revolutionary guards, Pakistan army also has a faction which is very deeply ideologically committed to the cause of Islam.
Pakistan faces no existential threat from India, you fucking idiot. Pakistan practices the military doctrine of “bleed India to death by 1000 cuts". We carry out terrorist attack in India with full impunity ; just recently Pakistan backed Hezbul Mujahideen and Jammu Kashmir liberation front (JKLF) have killed dozens of indian soldiers in Kashmir this month. ISI also trains Sikh insurgents (khalistan movement- leaders of whom were assassinated in Canada by INDIA) in Lahore.
I personally know family friends who did jihad in indian occupied Kashmir lmao.
Pakistan maintains plausible deniability for diplomacy, but everyone knows we do them and India has not really responded in any way.
India does not have the ability to support militant proxies in Pakistan this way, even more important since we have installed pro Pakistan Taliban in Afghanistan.
Nobody threatening Pakistan big guy.
It's true there's nothing really threatening Pakistan, but if Pakistan wants to change anything in India it's going to need to make more and deeper cuts than this. India seems to be doing just fine.
Hate is an emotion that no one can control, you can hate but you can’t act on it. Protestants hate Catholics and vice versa plus they have had a bad history. Neither of two groups now are committing any infringements on the other. Even if Muslims don’t like Jews that does not give Israel a free pass to not comply with international law. Moreover, talking about Israeli society, they have become an extremist far right society, who have adopted the ideology of Meir Khan. If you were truthful you would analyzed Israelis society evolution to the right over the 30 years. That actually the journalists David Sheen even said when the Khanist terrorist walked into the Ibraham quarters and killed 20 Muslim prayer, 30 days later Hamas launched the first suicide attack. Anti-semitism for the right has turned into anti-racism for the left. Hold your breath Richard Anti-semitism is going no where and it is rising due to the acts of zionist. Your are an untruthful man who is so blinded by liberal delusions. Believe me if for the last 50 years Muslims have shown one thing , they will kick ass of any occupier, Soviet Union, US in Iraq and Afghanistan, and it seems like Israel is on the path. You are a woke conservative nothing els.
Here's a discussion of how Israel has moved to the right over time:
https://unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com/p/how-to-solve-the-israel-palestine-conflict
As for what the "last 50 years" have shown, the Yom Kippur war did not show that Muslims would "kick the ass" of Israel, even if they did better than 1967. Richard already pointed out that Chechnya & Syria are points against the viability of Islamist movements (he neglected to note that Syria had already crushed them in an earlier generation). To that we could also add Algeria. The government the US set up in Iraq is still there, even if it wasn't worthwhile doing so. In Afghanistan the US was not really militarily defeated, we just decided to leave because it wasn't worth sticking around after having previously kicked out the Taliban and eventually assassinating OBL (here we absolutely failed to set up a stable government, but that doesn't seem to be what Richard is advocating here).
Yes I didn't mention Yom Kippur because it was between Egypt and Syria (official armies). The examples I gave were all guerrilla warfare, which Israel has not won in any war that was against urban fighters (you can call them terrorist I don't care).
Thanks I will look into the link, the guy seems to have a list of articles, which I will surly read.
More likely, Richard is simply a Normie, whose thinking is conditioned by the environment he was raised in.
Nice touch using the proper word for his deceit: untruthful. Normies would call it lying, but lying implies he knows better, which I doubt is the case.
Imagine if someone was to introduce semiotics to the general public and it caught on, Israel would really be in trouble if the common citizen was able to see through their skilful deceit with academic rigourl rather than simply common sense and intuition.
I wouldn’t call him a normie, he graduated from an elite school. More of the managerial elite who are detached from reality
*Meir Kahane
I guess it's the natural edge lord thing for you to do to come out in favor of ethnic cleansing, but even leaving aside that, crazily enough, some people morally object to that kind of thing in and of itself, going along with it has creates incentives for countries to do it again. Israel has wanted precisely this at least since Netanyahu came to power in the late 2000s; his government openly opposed Palestinian statehood - not now, or until some conditions are met, but ever - and supported Hamas over the PA for precisely that purpose, in order to enable Israel at a future date to annex Gaza and the West Bank and likely ethnically cleanse those regions of Palestinians (he himself is reticent about his end goal but a few of his cabinet members say this is the goal openly). If that plan works, then other states will take note and see it as a viable strategy of ethnically cleansing groups they don't like without becoming pariahs. It's ironic that you note the success of the Chinese with the Uighurs as a template to follow, but don't consider that countries like China are more likely to do this to ethnic minorities in the future precisely because they'll note that this strategy works because the 'international community' tacitly aids and abets it.
"Israel has wanted precisely this at least since Netanyahu came to power in the late 2000s; his government OPENLY opposed Palestinian statehood - not now, or until some conditions are met, but ever"
Netanyahu endorsed Palestinian statehood in the 2009 Bar Ilan speech. Maybe he didn't mean it or whatever, but whoever gave you your takes is not a reliable resource
What are the true borders of Israel according to the Likud party's charter?
He also has said multiple times in an endorsing fashion that supporting Hamas will prevent any sort of Palestinian state from forming.
Correct. The Likud is a one-state party, founded out of a terrorist paramilitary, that has moderated over time and now formally accepts a 2 state solution though clearly many of its members do not. In that regard it is precisely identical to Fatah, but oddly those who insist that Fatah should be taken at their word say the opposite about the Likud.
In what sense did Netanyahu support Hamas over the PA?
The only publicly known pro-Hamas moves Netanyahu’s made were allowing Qatari aid into Gaza and allowing Gazans to work in Israel. Both actions loosened the blockade, which leftists supposedly want. And neither is a privilege denied to the PA.
In 2006 Israel prevented the PLO from obtaining and using tax funds to make their case for the election. The also continue to demonstrate on a daily basis what a more peaceful Palestinian population will get in the West Bank: homes bulldozed, more settlements, settlers beating the shit out of you and burning your house down. If Israel was really interested in peace they wouldn't be expanding settlements and looking the other way at settler violence.
I guess you are missing the point. The leaders of Pakistan use the Jihadi warriors like little puppets they can use to raise and lower tensions with India, but they know they do not want a big war with India. Death by 1,000 cuts is a slogan but India has over a billion people and is more advanced technologically and its economy is much bigger and stronger. The existential threat is that India could crush Pakistan in a conventional war or at least get it into a war of attrition that Pakistan cannot win. Pakistan may win a few tactical battles, but it will not so slowly run out of people and munitions. It has no big power arms supplier. The Pakistani leadership is too smart to get into such a war. And it would never let any of its nukes get out of its direct control. What is hard for Islamist extremists to understand is that most Muslims are not as eager as they are to get into a suicidal war. When Islamists won the Presidency in Egypt during the Arab Spring, it wasn’t long before the military took them down. The military in Pakistan is even less willing to tolerate any threat from Islamists to its dominance.
Hamas would rather every single Palestinian die than stop trying to destroy Israel.
Which is why Israel backed Hamas over the PLO