Classical Greek scholar here, I agree with most of this and think the aristocratic nature of the Iliad reflects less the literal story and more how it was used in archaic Greek society. Unlike something like the Anead which was written in one go as a piece of Augustan propaganda, the Iliad was used by the mostly oligarchic city states of the early 1st millennium as a way of navigating social relations. It sounds strange, but in a world with no notion of race and only a very thin concept of ethnicity these kind of hero stories were essential for explaining why one city ought to owe loyalty to another or have trade relations. The cobbled together written version given to us by Homer (whoever that was) often reflects counter readings in its fleshed out characters or puzzling epithets. That there isn't a straightforward heroic king narrative, like you might see in Near Eastern epic, speaks to Illiad being a bottom up project where many different elite communities contributed and fleshed out characters onto which they identified. Essentially the messaging is aristocratic because the version we have is the one that was sung when the Greek world was defined by many scattered aristocratic societies that needed to find ways of linking themselves together. You can definitely see the pattern that would become Western republican governance starting there. Though it might be fairer to say that's a Mediterranean rather than Greek phenomenon. We know Phoenician diaspora communities are doing something similar with the Dido story. Again, ostensibly a monarchical story but one that really sets the stage for justifying rule by an independent elite via her death and willingness to go against rulers back home and in North Africa. Aristotle was an admirer of the Carthaginian constitution and its likely that it had as much influence on Rome's split power model as the earlier Greek precedent.
I've always wondered about Carthage. Fair to say they would be regarded as the granddaddy of western civilization, and we would talk about "Phoenician-Carthaginian" civilization instead of "Greco-Roman" civilization, if Carthage had won the second punic war? My intuition is that the invention of the first phonetic alphabet puts Phoenicia in the same tier as Greece intellectually, except for the fact that fewer Phoenician sources survived. Maybe if Carthage wins they destroy a bunch of Roman and/or Greek sources.
My instinct is that it would have been Carthaginian-Greek. We know that the Carthaginians are about as Hellenistically obsessed as the Romans. It's all over their self styling and iconography-- the Barcids mint a lot of coins that are sort of local riffs on the designs of Alexander's generals. Even 'Phoenician' is really a term meaningless in the Near Eastern context (from an old Homeric word relating either to the famous royal purple dyes of Tyre or the palm tree) but is something Carthage uses to brand itself in the West. Greek and its associated artistic styles become a sort of medium to express prestige and power after the death of Alexander and that has far reaching effects from Iberia to Northern India. Likely a lot of what the Carthaginians were writing would have been in Greek. The head of Plato's academy at the fall of Carthage, one Clitomachus, formerly Hasdrubal, was actually a Carthaginian that went to Athens to pursue further studies in philosophy. When Carthage is sacked he writes a treatise to comfort his fellow countrymen in Greek rather than Punic, which says a lot about the bilingual literary and cultural expectations of their elite.
That being said, we know that the Carthaginians did have their own cultural formats that they, and seemingly also the Romans, valued. The most notable is Mago's colossal farming treatise. Often this has been written off as a dry informational text but what quotes we have resemble something looking more like the Old Testament or Egyptian wisdom literature than anything else. The Romans apparently were fond of it, in any case, and commissioned a complete translation when they seized the libraries. Which is another interesting point-- the libraries actually seem to have survived. We know Mago and a number of the voyaging texts (most famously Hanno the Navigator's exploration of Africa) were translated into Latin. The remainder was given to the Numidian kings and we have references to their survival up to the Vandalic invasion!
The challenging aspect of studying Carthage is that most of the surviving texts are from the Roman perspective. Most of Roman literature is written well after Carthaginian culture has been reduced to a local African footnote. There's little incentive for the Romans to position themselves against anything but the wider Hellenistic prestige culture and they tend to downplay other associations. But a look back at nearly any aspect of early Rome raises more than a few eye brows. For one, our oldest statue of Heracles from the Forum Boarium is clearly the Phoenician god Melqart rather than the Greek Heracles. Cato, who innovated the first Latin literature, also seems to have sought to compete both with Greece by adapting history and plausibly Carthage by adapting a farming treatise (Hesiod is another plausible parallel, but the senate funded translation of Mago and the political connotations therein strongly suggests this was his aim). There's also the Poenulus (the little Phoenician), a Roman old comedy play, which incorporates spoken Phoenician dialogue that seems to mostly take a piss on sub elite elements in the Roman audience. You wouldn't write that if you weren't getting laughs from the more cosmopolitan individuals like Scipio because they were familiar with the language.
Ultimately, it's an unanswerable question for the lack of a smoking gun, but the most plausible picture is that Carthage and Rome were both barbarian states in the west playing with international cultural prestige to secure their legitimacy. Who would ultimately inherit the Greek mantle and adapt their culture through it was very much in play during the Punic wars. My best guess is that when all was said and done, Rome couldn't escape the fact it was quite familiar with and had been influenced by Carthage's example.
It's possible but unlikely. The library seems to mostly be a stoic nerd's Philodemus collection. I anticipate a couple curve balls coming out as scanning technology gets better but what those will be is anyone's guess.
One issue with Mago is that his translation (or original) is very expensive to own and interest depreciates as time goes own. The Romans translate him in 246 because translation is a kind of cultural imperialism and great propaganda. Fascination with Mago in the imperial world is more in the idea of him as a great writer than anything he has to say. Agrarian writers like citing his technical advice in-between their own moral expository because the citation itself is what's most useful. There's something of a game actually of Greek and Romans producing ever more truncated digests that continues into Byzantine period.
The exception is the Spaniard (so heavily tied into the Phoenician tradition) Columella. It's from him we get bits that look like they probably come from the 246 edition in their style and moral fixation.
We can hope though! It'd be the best windfall for understanding of elite Carthagian culture since the French stumbled into the Tophet.
I think if you are going to discuss the Iliad's value system in terms of the relationship between leaders and masses, one scene you really need to take into account is the speech of Sarpedon in Book 12, placed almost exactly at the center of the epic. In that speech Sarpedon explicitly describes the honor given to the chiefs as a reciprocal system: a reward to them by the people for their willingness to lead - and potentially die - in battle.
I don't see how that is compatible with your reading: yes, it too can be read as a justification for elite rule, but it is not a justification for UNCONDITIONAL elite rule, no matter how the elites perform, which is what you were arguing for. Your mistake - I think - is to note (correctly) that the elites in the Iliad are not judged on their wisdom or success, but you fail to see what they ARE judged on, which is their risk-taking courage.
This isn't propaganda because none of this is weird in the context the Iliad was written in.
The Greek soldiers in the Iliad aren't levies or conscripts, they're very loosely equivalent to a Viking war band. Their motivation for being there is so they can sack the city. They're also beneficiaries of the same social hierarchy that puts Agamemnon in charge.
Priam not returning Helen is straightforwardly understandable as not giving in to threats. As soon as the Trojans start giving the Greeks stuff to get them to go away, they implicitly create a relationship where have to start paying tribute to Agamemnon. They'd also realistically have to turn over Paris as well, who was Priam's son and so that's not on the table.
More generally, Thersites is basically a stock character that persists down to the present in any society which assumes the social hierarchy is accurate (rulers are better than elites are better than commoners are better than menials); he's a distant ancestor of Baldrick in Blackadder. The American idea that everyone is basically the same and social hierarchies are a kind of racket where the people at the top trick everyone wouldn't have occurred to a 9th-century BC Greek, who would have assumed that obviously kings were better than commoners.
The Greek would be more right, because the elites would be noticeably taller (vast nutritional differences, including dietary protein, means aristocrats would have post-industrial height, peasants pre-industrial height), stronger (ibid), better looking (partly ibid, also having first choice of women gives a genetic advantage), smarter (ibid), have a far broader range of knowledge and experience, and militarily trained. The king and the commoner are only equal if you assume that there's something on the inside, separate from all their observable characteristics, in which all people are the same as each other; this is a really janky hack invented by the Christians, and raises all sorts of other questions if you don't just assume it's true by default (do women/children/animals also have equal souls, and why are the souls more important than everything else). Contra Jefferson, it's not actually "self-evident."
Taking this together, you can compare the Iliad to Saving Private Ryan. Sure, it's propaganda on some level. But it's not propaganda in favour of having a large, paid conscript army with meritocratic promotions that obeys an elected civilian power structure and doesn't loot. Spielberg literally won't have thought about any of those details, he'll just have assumed that's how armies work because he's American and that's the sea he's swimming in; he doesn't have to worry that his audience will think, "Why isn't Tom Hanks looting Paris and carrying off a Frenchwoman as his spoils?" Homer's the same thing in reverse, he's not arguing against 21st century norms because they wouldn't occur to him.
"The American idea that everyone is basically the same and social hierarchies are a kind of racket where the people at the top trick everyone"
I've recently become rather obsessed with genealogy, and have been reading a number of obituaries published in the US in previous decades. One thing that's struck me is how different the public attitudes towards elites seemed to be prior to 1950 or so. E.g. here's an excerpt from an obituary of a very distant relative of mine, published 1939:
"CASHMERE PAYS LAST RESPECTS TO F. W. SCHMITTEN; PASSED AWAY MONDAY IN WENATCHEE
Started Sawmill Industry Here in 1902; Maintained Cashmere's Largest Payroll
Cashmere this morning paused to pay last respects to one its most famous and most beloved citizens. Friends from all over North Central Washington came to attend the funeral F. W. Schmitten, who passed away Monday night Wenatchee hospital, Cashmere mourned him as a citizen who did much more than to build up his town and who was always ready to help anyone in need.
Few knew how much he actually did for others because he preferred to remain anonymous in his giving. North Central Washington paid last respects to him as the 'Grand-daddy' of the lumber industry in this section, one who built up and maintained one of the largest payrolls, giving steady employment to hundreds of families."
I'm tempted to argue that the idea that rich people are inherently distrustworthy is more of a communist idea than an American one. In a functional society, there's a social contract of noblesse oblige where the rich are respected, and in return they serve the public by creating jobs, running for public office, engaging in philanthropy, and so forth. Perhaps Cold War communist propaganda and/or social media fist-pounding caused this social contract to break down in the United States. It's shocking to me how many lefty thought leaders consider the Giving Pledge to be terrifically problematic, to the point where billionaires have begun to sour on it. Seriously folx, wtf are you thinking?
As usual, the progressive approach is to continue the beatings until morale improves. If rich people are assumed to be scoundrels, you're essentially lessening the social penalty for being a scoundrel if you're rich, and reducing or eliminating the social payoff for being virtuous if you're rich. Classic self-fulfilling prophecy. Just look at the extreme recklessness and rapacity of modern AI development to see the result.
Breakdown in relations between "elites" and "commoners" seems like a plausible root cause of much current dysfunction. Or I suppose "elite overproduction" is another way of thinking about the same thing.
That's a fascinating point. I think a lot of it is internal class conflicts as well; the New Deal managerial types didn't like business owners, and the GI bill generation didn't like WASPs, so that together (plus socialist and communist propaganda) led to rich/posh people becoming stock villains. I think the lefty leaders these days are more straightforwardly in a class conflict between business-owners and academic/journalist/bureaucratic/professional types who think they're smarter and better educated so should be the ones in charge and don't like big private charity because it shuts them out of the loop. It also potentially creates an alternative patronage structure, but I don't think many of them would think about that consciously.
On the other hand, anti-Rockefeller agitation goes back to the 19th century and the trust-busting era, so it's possibly just an outgrowth of 19th century populism that was mimetically competitive. Or both streams fed into the same river.
An interesting wrinkle here involves the nature of Bronze Age warfare. Bronze was scarce and expensive, so elites who could afford bronze armor and weapons essentially served as a super-soldiers. It may have been the most elite-dominated style of warfare ever. Therefore, the everyman soldiers simply mattered far less.
The Iron Age changed this dynamic. Iron is much more plentiful than tin, so it dramatically reduced the cost of arming lots of soldiers. This, in turn, dramatically reduced the importance of elite soldiers.
"Maybe some clever poet originally inserted the story of Thersites in order to subtly critique the values of the Greeks..."
This is actually the view of several scholars, that Homer is using Thersites as a vehicle for irony and to express a reasonable but subversive view of the poet himself, much like how many scholars view Shylock.
To elaborate a bit, there is quite a lot of irony in the Iliad, especially in its depiction of Agamemnon (strong and beautiful but a huge jackass), and the same inversion is at least suggested in the case of Thersites. Additionally, by making Thersites his scapegoat for his inability to beat Achilles, Odysseus is diminished. There is some scholarly commentary about the exact translation about the soldiers laughing and cheering is ambiguous.
>There is some scholarly commentary about the exact translation about the soldiers laughing and cheering is ambiguous.
Right, I noticed that the translation Richard uses says "The men were troubled but they smiled and laughed" which is carrying a lot more ambiguity than just "the men smiled and laughed"
Yes, or "upset". PW Rose in "Plural Voices in Homer" wonders, along with a few others he cites, whether the soldiers are upset "at the failed rush to the ships" or "the treatment of their spokesperson."
I would recommend Simone Weil’s essay, “The Iliad, or the Poem of Force”, as my preferred interpretation of the epic. Reading it as aristocracy-justifying propaganda does not really make sense to me largely for the reasons set out in Weil’s essay.
I enjoyed this piece. The alien psychological (the toughest men are CONSTANTLY crying and bitching) and moral universe of the Iliad is a big part of its draw.
I think there is something to your view, but I also think a straightforward reading of the main heroes as "virtuous, but with interesting flaws" works pretty well, when you consider that the primary virtues with which the warrior elite were concerned are things like "personal courage, strength at arms, glorious leader of men to prosperity and victory, piety [right action and ritual to keep the gods happy]". These guys were basically Vikings, so Agamemnon reads more as "glorious leader brought low by his arrogance and his habit of not paying attention to, or honoring, his key supporters and the gods" and less as "giant dick-bag". Odysseus is more-or-less an ideal Greek, except for the huge (by Greek standards) flaw of getting into a pissing match with the gods (half of Greek mythology is examples of why you should Not Do This and the other half is how sometimes you are screwed regardless because you are in a situation where you offend one god or another, and Odysseus and Agamemnon are good examples of the first, and Paris of the second [pissing of Athena is at least as much his problem as pissing off Agamemnon]).
It's classic "good guy with some fatal flaws and bad luck, leading to fun drama" writing. Just an alien definition of "good guy" which is richer than "happens to be a noble".
Thersites is contemptable because he is a coward uninterested in glory and his points that Agamemnon is treating Achilles unfairly is intended to highlight a real flaw in Agamemnon to the audience, but (i) it is one that he doesn't have the standing to raise, as a cowardly weakling and (ii) is sullied because Thersites clearly just wants to go home, and is stirring up (more) shit in order to achieve that objective--you do not get the sense that he would be satisfied if Agamemnon only apologized so they get on with the glorious conquest. This device of a contemptable person saying a true thing, but still being contemptable is used a lot in classical literature.
I think a reason for the enduring value of the Iliad, whatever its message, is the beauty of its poetry, and that calling it propaganda misses its implicit critique of elite behavior. There is something clearly wrong about this culture of extreme violence driven by offended honor and petty grievance over prizes -- a culture Priam and Achilles momentarily escape, in Book 24, in their moment of shared loss. What they are fighting over isn't worth it, they realize, but they're unable to escape the cycle of violence.
Agree with the person who recommends "Poem of Force" (which, in a word, sees a kind of Christian message in the Iliad) as well as Shakespeare's Troilus and Cressida, which is a savage satire on the Iliad's heroic culture in which Thersites plays a prominent role.
The gods are the ultimate framework in the Illiad. Their criteria, seemingly arbitrary to us are skill, courage and beauty. In the human world it is simply formed hierarchy. Opposing those in power leads to endless war. Better unjust stability than constant instability. Democracy seem to be the best we can do so long as the results are accepted. Then we get an almost laughable parade of leaders. Fascism and Communism are the vices of failed Democracies.
Fascinating analysis, but I suspect it's wrong, and before I had to give it any credence, I would need to see comparisons with other civilizationally impactful literature from the same lens of "propaganda justifying aristocratic rule."
My guess is you would find that such literature generally praises rulers as exemplars of virtue, though clumsily because virtue wasn't well understood.
If so, what stands out about The Iliad would be that it is so lucid about the indefensible vices of the ruling class. That helped to pave the way for democracy. And yet the Greek heroes are very brave, plunging into the fight again and again with gusto. That, too, set a pattern that undergirded Greek greatness.
The Greeks had fine role models of courage, even if they were morally inept to an incredible degree, taken holistically.
"Perhaps this optimization process can explain why Greek civilization flourished. The value system reflected in and propagandized by The Iliad seems conducive to social stability. At the same time, by defending elite prerogatives rather than preaching worship of an individual ruler, as the Persians and Egyptians did, the story contributed to the maintenance of a civilization that was more democratic than anything that had come before, allowing it to benefit from relatively open debate and more opportunities for a wider range of talented men to contribute to society."
There was a riot of diversity in governance styles among Greek city-states. Some were proto democracies (like Athens), some were ruled by a king, some had oligarchies, and some were extremely bizarre with pretty much no parallel in another known society (Sparta). A lot of precocious places had very fragmented, experimental backdrops like this. Italian city-states were much like this during the Renaissance, Western Europe itself was very fragmented and fractious after the fall of the Western Roman Empire.
If you are on an ancient Greece kick you should read Thucydides. It's actually remarkable how modern he seems - he is writing as a contemporary about the Peloponnesian War and is very clearly a very different breed of cat from the guys in the Iliad and Homer.
>The Iliad isn’t similar to standard authoritarian propaganda today, in which leaders are treated as unusually wise and virtuous. Such material exists to legitimize the rule of particular individuals. The Iliad has a different purpose: to justify the rule of elites as representing the natural order of the world, which in effect means that defending the virtue of past leaders is unnecessary, if not downright counterproductive.
The role of religion is also interesting here, e.g. the concept of "divine right of kings" (Europe) or the "mandate of heaven" (China). Egyptian pharaohs would simply declare themselves gods.
One modern phenomenon which I think is underrated: Even though not all countries are democracies, the existence of *some* democracies still requires authoritarians to work harder to legitimize their rule so that the populace will regard the authoritarian government as a comparatively good option. See for example https://www.chinatalk.media/p/why-deepseek-appeasing-karens-is
In pre-industrial societies people had dramatically lower expectations of their government. See this book: https://www.amazon.com/Pre-Industrial-Societies-Anatomy-Pre-Modern-World/dp/1780747411 The attitude was "the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must". In those days "government" kinda just meant paying taxes and not getting much of anything in return. As a citizen, your main interaction with government was trying to avoid paying taxes. You didn't strongly identify with your "country" (back in those days the word "kingdom" or "empire" was more likely to be used, which reflected a real difference in political structure). You might not even speak the same language as the ruler: Some sources claim that at the time of the French Revolution, less than 20% the population spoke the standard French language as their native tongue.
Nowadays there has been a revolution of rising expectations. Even in the US, which has one of the highest median incomes in the world adjusted for cost of living, a military-defense position which is well beyond impregnable, and legions of foreigners desperately trying to get in, voters are still perpetually convinced that something is deeply wrong, and keep electing leaders like Obama and Trump who promise hope and change. Please excuse me while I pulverize my forehead.
As also in the Iliad: it is often repeated that kings' power is granted by Zeus. However, at the time depicted in the Iliad it apparently wasn't thought that the gods cared whether kings ruled well or justly: this is stated only once in the Iliad, in a simile comparing something to the anger of Zeus at a king who judges corruptly, & the similes in Homer are generally thought to be late additions to the poems.
> The Greeks and Trojans speak (roughly) the same language – which we can tell by their ability to communicate clearly on the battlefield
No, they don't. This is explicit in the Iliad, which remarks that the Greeks all share a language, but the Trojans and their allies speak innumerable different tongues.
It is stated that the Trojans' allies (not the Trojans themselves[1]) speak many languages, but (as far as I remember) this isn't reflected in the story — the most prominently featured Trojan allies, Sarpedon & Glaucus (kings of the Lycians, who historically spoke an Anatolian language related to Hittite) & Aeneas (leader of the Dardanians, whose city was near Troy; by the Classical period it was Greek-speaking, but AFAIK it's not known what language they spoke in the Bronze Age), are presented as speaking to the Greek warriors in the same language. Nor are they shown as different in culture or religion: as another commenter has observed, a central speech on the glory & prominence of kings (at 12:310), reflecting archaic Greek attitudes to aristocracy, is spoken by Sarpedon the Lycian to his compatriot Glaucus.
[1] The passage I think you are referring to is 2.803-6:
πολλοὶ γὰρ κατὰ ἄστυ μέγα Πριάμου ἐπίκουροι
ἄλλη δ' ἄλλων γλῶσσα πολυσπερέων ἀνθρώπων·
τοῖσιν ἕκαστος ἀνὴρ σημαινέτω οἷσί περ ἄρχει
τῶν δ' ἐξηγείσθω κοσμησάμενος πολιήτᾱς.
"Because there are many allies throughout Priam's great city & different languages of different widely dispersed people; to these, let each man give the sign to those whom he rules & lead them out [to battle], putting [his own] citizens in order."
This clearly describes, not the Trojans, but their foreign allies, who are enumerated in the following lines.
>> The lack of pressure on Paris to give back Helen, or Agamemnon to return Briseis, is what is particularly striking. Putting aside common soldiers, even fellow elites seem helpless to change their minds. Agamemnon is at least the leader of the Greeks, but Paris is simply one nobleman among many, and the Trojans let him be the cause of the entire war, as even his father admits.
I mean isn't the comparable analogue that the war was also started for one person Menaus and not Greece just like Troy was fighting for Paris.
Ajax the greater also considered killing all the Greek leaders at a point for anothee weird reason
Classical Greek scholar here, I agree with most of this and think the aristocratic nature of the Iliad reflects less the literal story and more how it was used in archaic Greek society. Unlike something like the Anead which was written in one go as a piece of Augustan propaganda, the Iliad was used by the mostly oligarchic city states of the early 1st millennium as a way of navigating social relations. It sounds strange, but in a world with no notion of race and only a very thin concept of ethnicity these kind of hero stories were essential for explaining why one city ought to owe loyalty to another or have trade relations. The cobbled together written version given to us by Homer (whoever that was) often reflects counter readings in its fleshed out characters or puzzling epithets. That there isn't a straightforward heroic king narrative, like you might see in Near Eastern epic, speaks to Illiad being a bottom up project where many different elite communities contributed and fleshed out characters onto which they identified. Essentially the messaging is aristocratic because the version we have is the one that was sung when the Greek world was defined by many scattered aristocratic societies that needed to find ways of linking themselves together. You can definitely see the pattern that would become Western republican governance starting there. Though it might be fairer to say that's a Mediterranean rather than Greek phenomenon. We know Phoenician diaspora communities are doing something similar with the Dido story. Again, ostensibly a monarchical story but one that really sets the stage for justifying rule by an independent elite via her death and willingness to go against rulers back home and in North Africa. Aristotle was an admirer of the Carthaginian constitution and its likely that it had as much influence on Rome's split power model as the earlier Greek precedent.
I've always wondered about Carthage. Fair to say they would be regarded as the granddaddy of western civilization, and we would talk about "Phoenician-Carthaginian" civilization instead of "Greco-Roman" civilization, if Carthage had won the second punic war? My intuition is that the invention of the first phonetic alphabet puts Phoenicia in the same tier as Greece intellectually, except for the fact that fewer Phoenician sources survived. Maybe if Carthage wins they destroy a bunch of Roman and/or Greek sources.
My instinct is that it would have been Carthaginian-Greek. We know that the Carthaginians are about as Hellenistically obsessed as the Romans. It's all over their self styling and iconography-- the Barcids mint a lot of coins that are sort of local riffs on the designs of Alexander's generals. Even 'Phoenician' is really a term meaningless in the Near Eastern context (from an old Homeric word relating either to the famous royal purple dyes of Tyre or the palm tree) but is something Carthage uses to brand itself in the West. Greek and its associated artistic styles become a sort of medium to express prestige and power after the death of Alexander and that has far reaching effects from Iberia to Northern India. Likely a lot of what the Carthaginians were writing would have been in Greek. The head of Plato's academy at the fall of Carthage, one Clitomachus, formerly Hasdrubal, was actually a Carthaginian that went to Athens to pursue further studies in philosophy. When Carthage is sacked he writes a treatise to comfort his fellow countrymen in Greek rather than Punic, which says a lot about the bilingual literary and cultural expectations of their elite.
That being said, we know that the Carthaginians did have their own cultural formats that they, and seemingly also the Romans, valued. The most notable is Mago's colossal farming treatise. Often this has been written off as a dry informational text but what quotes we have resemble something looking more like the Old Testament or Egyptian wisdom literature than anything else. The Romans apparently were fond of it, in any case, and commissioned a complete translation when they seized the libraries. Which is another interesting point-- the libraries actually seem to have survived. We know Mago and a number of the voyaging texts (most famously Hanno the Navigator's exploration of Africa) were translated into Latin. The remainder was given to the Numidian kings and we have references to their survival up to the Vandalic invasion!
The challenging aspect of studying Carthage is that most of the surviving texts are from the Roman perspective. Most of Roman literature is written well after Carthaginian culture has been reduced to a local African footnote. There's little incentive for the Romans to position themselves against anything but the wider Hellenistic prestige culture and they tend to downplay other associations. But a look back at nearly any aspect of early Rome raises more than a few eye brows. For one, our oldest statue of Heracles from the Forum Boarium is clearly the Phoenician god Melqart rather than the Greek Heracles. Cato, who innovated the first Latin literature, also seems to have sought to compete both with Greece by adapting history and plausibly Carthage by adapting a farming treatise (Hesiod is another plausible parallel, but the senate funded translation of Mago and the political connotations therein strongly suggests this was his aim). There's also the Poenulus (the little Phoenician), a Roman old comedy play, which incorporates spoken Phoenician dialogue that seems to mostly take a piss on sub elite elements in the Roman audience. You wouldn't write that if you weren't getting laughs from the more cosmopolitan individuals like Scipio because they were familiar with the language.
Ultimately, it's an unanswerable question for the lack of a smoking gun, but the most plausible picture is that Carthage and Rome were both barbarian states in the west playing with international cultural prestige to secure their legitimacy. Who would ultimately inherit the Greek mantle and adapt their culture through it was very much in play during the Punic wars. My best guess is that when all was said and done, Rome couldn't escape the fact it was quite familiar with and had been influenced by Carthage's example.
Wow, thanks for the reply!
Could a copy of Mago’s treatise be contained in the Herculaneum Library?
It's possible but unlikely. The library seems to mostly be a stoic nerd's Philodemus collection. I anticipate a couple curve balls coming out as scanning technology gets better but what those will be is anyone's guess.
One issue with Mago is that his translation (or original) is very expensive to own and interest depreciates as time goes own. The Romans translate him in 246 because translation is a kind of cultural imperialism and great propaganda. Fascination with Mago in the imperial world is more in the idea of him as a great writer than anything he has to say. Agrarian writers like citing his technical advice in-between their own moral expository because the citation itself is what's most useful. There's something of a game actually of Greek and Romans producing ever more truncated digests that continues into Byzantine period.
The exception is the Spaniard (so heavily tied into the Phoenician tradition) Columella. It's from him we get bits that look like they probably come from the 246 edition in their style and moral fixation.
We can hope though! It'd be the best windfall for understanding of elite Carthagian culture since the French stumbled into the Tophet.
Ironically, Carthaginians were almost entirely Greek genetically.
I think if you are going to discuss the Iliad's value system in terms of the relationship between leaders and masses, one scene you really need to take into account is the speech of Sarpedon in Book 12, placed almost exactly at the center of the epic. In that speech Sarpedon explicitly describes the honor given to the chiefs as a reciprocal system: a reward to them by the people for their willingness to lead - and potentially die - in battle.
I don't see how that is compatible with your reading: yes, it too can be read as a justification for elite rule, but it is not a justification for UNCONDITIONAL elite rule, no matter how the elites perform, which is what you were arguing for. Your mistake - I think - is to note (correctly) that the elites in the Iliad are not judged on their wisdom or success, but you fail to see what they ARE judged on, which is their risk-taking courage.
This isn't propaganda because none of this is weird in the context the Iliad was written in.
The Greek soldiers in the Iliad aren't levies or conscripts, they're very loosely equivalent to a Viking war band. Their motivation for being there is so they can sack the city. They're also beneficiaries of the same social hierarchy that puts Agamemnon in charge.
Priam not returning Helen is straightforwardly understandable as not giving in to threats. As soon as the Trojans start giving the Greeks stuff to get them to go away, they implicitly create a relationship where have to start paying tribute to Agamemnon. They'd also realistically have to turn over Paris as well, who was Priam's son and so that's not on the table.
More generally, Thersites is basically a stock character that persists down to the present in any society which assumes the social hierarchy is accurate (rulers are better than elites are better than commoners are better than menials); he's a distant ancestor of Baldrick in Blackadder. The American idea that everyone is basically the same and social hierarchies are a kind of racket where the people at the top trick everyone wouldn't have occurred to a 9th-century BC Greek, who would have assumed that obviously kings were better than commoners.
The Greek would be more right, because the elites would be noticeably taller (vast nutritional differences, including dietary protein, means aristocrats would have post-industrial height, peasants pre-industrial height), stronger (ibid), better looking (partly ibid, also having first choice of women gives a genetic advantage), smarter (ibid), have a far broader range of knowledge and experience, and militarily trained. The king and the commoner are only equal if you assume that there's something on the inside, separate from all their observable characteristics, in which all people are the same as each other; this is a really janky hack invented by the Christians, and raises all sorts of other questions if you don't just assume it's true by default (do women/children/animals also have equal souls, and why are the souls more important than everything else). Contra Jefferson, it's not actually "self-evident."
Taking this together, you can compare the Iliad to Saving Private Ryan. Sure, it's propaganda on some level. But it's not propaganda in favour of having a large, paid conscript army with meritocratic promotions that obeys an elected civilian power structure and doesn't loot. Spielberg literally won't have thought about any of those details, he'll just have assumed that's how armies work because he's American and that's the sea he's swimming in; he doesn't have to worry that his audience will think, "Why isn't Tom Hanks looting Paris and carrying off a Frenchwoman as his spoils?" Homer's the same thing in reverse, he's not arguing against 21st century norms because they wouldn't occur to him.
"The American idea that everyone is basically the same and social hierarchies are a kind of racket where the people at the top trick everyone"
I've recently become rather obsessed with genealogy, and have been reading a number of obituaries published in the US in previous decades. One thing that's struck me is how different the public attitudes towards elites seemed to be prior to 1950 or so. E.g. here's an excerpt from an obituary of a very distant relative of mine, published 1939:
"CASHMERE PAYS LAST RESPECTS TO F. W. SCHMITTEN; PASSED AWAY MONDAY IN WENATCHEE
Started Sawmill Industry Here in 1902; Maintained Cashmere's Largest Payroll
Cashmere this morning paused to pay last respects to one its most famous and most beloved citizens. Friends from all over North Central Washington came to attend the funeral F. W. Schmitten, who passed away Monday night Wenatchee hospital, Cashmere mourned him as a citizen who did much more than to build up his town and who was always ready to help anyone in need.
Few knew how much he actually did for others because he preferred to remain anonymous in his giving. North Central Washington paid last respects to him as the 'Grand-daddy' of the lumber industry in this section, one who built up and maintained one of the largest payrolls, giving steady employment to hundreds of families."
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/37830299/fredrick_william-schmitten
I'm tempted to argue that the idea that rich people are inherently distrustworthy is more of a communist idea than an American one. In a functional society, there's a social contract of noblesse oblige where the rich are respected, and in return they serve the public by creating jobs, running for public office, engaging in philanthropy, and so forth. Perhaps Cold War communist propaganda and/or social media fist-pounding caused this social contract to break down in the United States. It's shocking to me how many lefty thought leaders consider the Giving Pledge to be terrifically problematic, to the point where billionaires have begun to sour on it. Seriously folx, wtf are you thinking?
As usual, the progressive approach is to continue the beatings until morale improves. If rich people are assumed to be scoundrels, you're essentially lessening the social penalty for being a scoundrel if you're rich, and reducing or eliminating the social payoff for being virtuous if you're rich. Classic self-fulfilling prophecy. Just look at the extreme recklessness and rapacity of modern AI development to see the result.
Breakdown in relations between "elites" and "commoners" seems like a plausible root cause of much current dysfunction. Or I suppose "elite overproduction" is another way of thinking about the same thing.
That's a fascinating point. I think a lot of it is internal class conflicts as well; the New Deal managerial types didn't like business owners, and the GI bill generation didn't like WASPs, so that together (plus socialist and communist propaganda) led to rich/posh people becoming stock villains. I think the lefty leaders these days are more straightforwardly in a class conflict between business-owners and academic/journalist/bureaucratic/professional types who think they're smarter and better educated so should be the ones in charge and don't like big private charity because it shuts them out of the loop. It also potentially creates an alternative patronage structure, but I don't think many of them would think about that consciously.
On the other hand, anti-Rockefeller agitation goes back to the 19th century and the trust-busting era, so it's possibly just an outgrowth of 19th century populism that was mimetically competitive. Or both streams fed into the same river.
Suddenly, I have an insight into the relationship between Epstein and our current ruling class oligarchs!
An interesting wrinkle here involves the nature of Bronze Age warfare. Bronze was scarce and expensive, so elites who could afford bronze armor and weapons essentially served as a super-soldiers. It may have been the most elite-dominated style of warfare ever. Therefore, the everyman soldiers simply mattered far less.
The Iron Age changed this dynamic. Iron is much more plentiful than tin, so it dramatically reduced the cost of arming lots of soldiers. This, in turn, dramatically reduced the importance of elite soldiers.
"Maybe some clever poet originally inserted the story of Thersites in order to subtly critique the values of the Greeks..."
This is actually the view of several scholars, that Homer is using Thersites as a vehicle for irony and to express a reasonable but subversive view of the poet himself, much like how many scholars view Shylock.
To elaborate a bit, there is quite a lot of irony in the Iliad, especially in its depiction of Agamemnon (strong and beautiful but a huge jackass), and the same inversion is at least suggested in the case of Thersites. Additionally, by making Thersites his scapegoat for his inability to beat Achilles, Odysseus is diminished. There is some scholarly commentary about the exact translation about the soldiers laughing and cheering is ambiguous.
>There is some scholarly commentary about the exact translation about the soldiers laughing and cheering is ambiguous.
Right, I noticed that the translation Richard uses says "The men were troubled but they smiled and laughed" which is carrying a lot more ambiguity than just "the men smiled and laughed"
Yes, or "upset". PW Rose in "Plural Voices in Homer" wonders, along with a few others he cites, whether the soldiers are upset "at the failed rush to the ships" or "the treatment of their spokesperson."
https://www.jstor.org/stable/26308593
I would recommend Simone Weil’s essay, “The Iliad, or the Poem of Force”, as my preferred interpretation of the epic. Reading it as aristocracy-justifying propaganda does not really make sense to me largely for the reasons set out in Weil’s essay.
I enjoyed this piece. The alien psychological (the toughest men are CONSTANTLY crying and bitching) and moral universe of the Iliad is a big part of its draw.
I think there is something to your view, but I also think a straightforward reading of the main heroes as "virtuous, but with interesting flaws" works pretty well, when you consider that the primary virtues with which the warrior elite were concerned are things like "personal courage, strength at arms, glorious leader of men to prosperity and victory, piety [right action and ritual to keep the gods happy]". These guys were basically Vikings, so Agamemnon reads more as "glorious leader brought low by his arrogance and his habit of not paying attention to, or honoring, his key supporters and the gods" and less as "giant dick-bag". Odysseus is more-or-less an ideal Greek, except for the huge (by Greek standards) flaw of getting into a pissing match with the gods (half of Greek mythology is examples of why you should Not Do This and the other half is how sometimes you are screwed regardless because you are in a situation where you offend one god or another, and Odysseus and Agamemnon are good examples of the first, and Paris of the second [pissing of Athena is at least as much his problem as pissing off Agamemnon]).
It's classic "good guy with some fatal flaws and bad luck, leading to fun drama" writing. Just an alien definition of "good guy" which is richer than "happens to be a noble".
Thersites is contemptable because he is a coward uninterested in glory and his points that Agamemnon is treating Achilles unfairly is intended to highlight a real flaw in Agamemnon to the audience, but (i) it is one that he doesn't have the standing to raise, as a cowardly weakling and (ii) is sullied because Thersites clearly just wants to go home, and is stirring up (more) shit in order to achieve that objective--you do not get the sense that he would be satisfied if Agamemnon only apologized so they get on with the glorious conquest. This device of a contemptable person saying a true thing, but still being contemptable is used a lot in classical literature.
I think a reason for the enduring value of the Iliad, whatever its message, is the beauty of its poetry, and that calling it propaganda misses its implicit critique of elite behavior. There is something clearly wrong about this culture of extreme violence driven by offended honor and petty grievance over prizes -- a culture Priam and Achilles momentarily escape, in Book 24, in their moment of shared loss. What they are fighting over isn't worth it, they realize, but they're unable to escape the cycle of violence.
Agree with the person who recommends "Poem of Force" (which, in a word, sees a kind of Christian message in the Iliad) as well as Shakespeare's Troilus and Cressida, which is a savage satire on the Iliad's heroic culture in which Thersites plays a prominent role.
The gods are the ultimate framework in the Illiad. Their criteria, seemingly arbitrary to us are skill, courage and beauty. In the human world it is simply formed hierarchy. Opposing those in power leads to endless war. Better unjust stability than constant instability. Democracy seem to be the best we can do so long as the results are accepted. Then we get an almost laughable parade of leaders. Fascism and Communism are the vices of failed Democracies.
Yes I agree, I think the basically had an extremely different concept of virtue/morality, not something we'd ever recognise as such.
Fascinating analysis, but I suspect it's wrong, and before I had to give it any credence, I would need to see comparisons with other civilizationally impactful literature from the same lens of "propaganda justifying aristocratic rule."
My guess is you would find that such literature generally praises rulers as exemplars of virtue, though clumsily because virtue wasn't well understood.
If so, what stands out about The Iliad would be that it is so lucid about the indefensible vices of the ruling class. That helped to pave the way for democracy. And yet the Greek heroes are very brave, plunging into the fight again and again with gusto. That, too, set a pattern that undergirded Greek greatness.
The Greeks had fine role models of courage, even if they were morally inept to an incredible degree, taken holistically.
"Perhaps this optimization process can explain why Greek civilization flourished. The value system reflected in and propagandized by The Iliad seems conducive to social stability. At the same time, by defending elite prerogatives rather than preaching worship of an individual ruler, as the Persians and Egyptians did, the story contributed to the maintenance of a civilization that was more democratic than anything that had come before, allowing it to benefit from relatively open debate and more opportunities for a wider range of talented men to contribute to society."
There was a riot of diversity in governance styles among Greek city-states. Some were proto democracies (like Athens), some were ruled by a king, some had oligarchies, and some were extremely bizarre with pretty much no parallel in another known society (Sparta). A lot of precocious places had very fragmented, experimental backdrops like this. Italian city-states were much like this during the Renaissance, Western Europe itself was very fragmented and fractious after the fall of the Western Roman Empire.
If you are on an ancient Greece kick you should read Thucydides. It's actually remarkable how modern he seems - he is writing as a contemporary about the Peloponnesian War and is very clearly a very different breed of cat from the guys in the Iliad and Homer.
>The Iliad isn’t similar to standard authoritarian propaganda today, in which leaders are treated as unusually wise and virtuous. Such material exists to legitimize the rule of particular individuals. The Iliad has a different purpose: to justify the rule of elites as representing the natural order of the world, which in effect means that defending the virtue of past leaders is unnecessary, if not downright counterproductive.
The role of religion is also interesting here, e.g. the concept of "divine right of kings" (Europe) or the "mandate of heaven" (China). Egyptian pharaohs would simply declare themselves gods.
One modern phenomenon which I think is underrated: Even though not all countries are democracies, the existence of *some* democracies still requires authoritarians to work harder to legitimize their rule so that the populace will regard the authoritarian government as a comparatively good option. See for example https://www.chinatalk.media/p/why-deepseek-appeasing-karens-is
In pre-industrial societies people had dramatically lower expectations of their government. See this book: https://www.amazon.com/Pre-Industrial-Societies-Anatomy-Pre-Modern-World/dp/1780747411 The attitude was "the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must". In those days "government" kinda just meant paying taxes and not getting much of anything in return. As a citizen, your main interaction with government was trying to avoid paying taxes. You didn't strongly identify with your "country" (back in those days the word "kingdom" or "empire" was more likely to be used, which reflected a real difference in political structure). You might not even speak the same language as the ruler: Some sources claim that at the time of the French Revolution, less than 20% the population spoke the standard French language as their native tongue.
Nowadays there has been a revolution of rising expectations. Even in the US, which has one of the highest median incomes in the world adjusted for cost of living, a military-defense position which is well beyond impregnable, and legions of foreigners desperately trying to get in, voters are still perpetually convinced that something is deeply wrong, and keep electing leaders like Obama and Trump who promise hope and change. Please excuse me while I pulverize my forehead.
> The role of religion is also interesting here
As also in the Iliad: it is often repeated that kings' power is granted by Zeus. However, at the time depicted in the Iliad it apparently wasn't thought that the gods cared whether kings ruled well or justly: this is stated only once in the Iliad, in a simile comparing something to the anger of Zeus at a king who judges corruptly, & the similes in Homer are generally thought to be late additions to the poems.
> The Greeks and Trojans speak (roughly) the same language – which we can tell by their ability to communicate clearly on the battlefield
No, they don't. This is explicit in the Iliad, which remarks that the Greeks all share a language, but the Trojans and their allies speak innumerable different tongues.
It is stated that the Trojans' allies (not the Trojans themselves[1]) speak many languages, but (as far as I remember) this isn't reflected in the story — the most prominently featured Trojan allies, Sarpedon & Glaucus (kings of the Lycians, who historically spoke an Anatolian language related to Hittite) & Aeneas (leader of the Dardanians, whose city was near Troy; by the Classical period it was Greek-speaking, but AFAIK it's not known what language they spoke in the Bronze Age), are presented as speaking to the Greek warriors in the same language. Nor are they shown as different in culture or religion: as another commenter has observed, a central speech on the glory & prominence of kings (at 12:310), reflecting archaic Greek attitudes to aristocracy, is spoken by Sarpedon the Lycian to his compatriot Glaucus.
[1] The passage I think you are referring to is 2.803-6:
πολλοὶ γὰρ κατὰ ἄστυ μέγα Πριάμου ἐπίκουροι
ἄλλη δ' ἄλλων γλῶσσα πολυσπερέων ἀνθρώπων·
τοῖσιν ἕκαστος ἀνὴρ σημαινέτω οἷσί περ ἄρχει
τῶν δ' ἐξηγείσθω κοσμησάμενος πολιήτᾱς.
"Because there are many allies throughout Priam's great city & different languages of different widely dispersed people; to these, let each man give the sign to those whom he rules & lead them out [to battle], putting [his own] citizens in order."
This clearly describes, not the Trojans, but their foreign allies, who are enumerated in the following lines.
>> The lack of pressure on Paris to give back Helen, or Agamemnon to return Briseis, is what is particularly striking. Putting aside common soldiers, even fellow elites seem helpless to change their minds. Agamemnon is at least the leader of the Greeks, but Paris is simply one nobleman among many, and the Trojans let him be the cause of the entire war, as even his father admits.
I mean isn't the comparable analogue that the war was also started for one person Menaus and not Greece just like Troy was fighting for Paris.
Ajax the greater also considered killing all the Greek leaders at a point for anothee weird reason
If you look at all the epics surrounding the war of Troy, you will realize that all of the aristocracy paid a price.