I haven't read Stalin's War yet (though I have read a couple of McMeekin's books), so I am only going by other people's summaries for the time being. A couple of counter-points that I'd be interested in hearing McMeekin address:
* (1) is correct as of June 1941, but it is incorrect in retrospect. It is highly likely to near certain that a Nazi victory would have been far worse for near everyone east of the Oder to the Sea of Japan than half a century of Communist rule. While I am not much interested in questions of morality as pertains to history, insofar as the argument that McMeekin is making is partly a moral one, this merits a response.
* (2) is outright questionable. A Nazi Germany that controlled all of continental Europe up to the Urals (in reality, probably Siberia and the Soviet Far East too, while it's true that stopping at the Urals was a German rhetorical talking point, in practice there would have been scant reason not to finish the job when they got there since resistance at that point would have been minimal, there's very little population and industry east of the Urals) would have been a vastly more formidable competitor to the Anglo-Americans for world hegemony than a demographically crippled USSR laboring under an absurdly inefficient economic system and substantially reliant on foreign technological imports. Had the Germans defeated the USSR decisively in 1942, there would have been no way that the Western Allies could have ended up defeating it militarily; even had the Germans won in 1943, Western Allied victory would have been entirely dependent on racing to the Bomb and getting there at least a couple of years ahead of the Germans (possibly, but unlikely). Insofar as Anglo-American national interests preclude the emergence of powerful competitors, which in the case of a Nazi Germany hegemon in Eurasia would have posed a vastly greater challenge to them than the USSR, then it seems clear that siding with the USSR tallied perfectly with their national interests (certainly in retrospect, arguably pretty obviously from the perspective of Allied leaders at the time too). They got to squash the more powerful competitor, with 95% of the blood price being paid by the secondary competitor. In that sense, it was an almost absurdly "profitable" exchange.
Agreed with this analysis, and also some additional thoughts: Having Germans be expelled from the territories east of the Oder-Neisse Line was a lesser evil in comparison to having Slavs be expelled from the territories west of the Urals. My educated guess is that only something like 20% of Germans actually lived east of the Oder-Neisse Line whereas the overwhelming majority of Eastern Slavs lived west of the Urals. Eastern Germany did contain some important German cities such as Breslau and Konigsberg, but their loss to Germany would not have been anywhere near as crippling as the loss of the entire European part of the Soviet Union (to Nazi Germany) would have been to the Eastern Slavic peoples. That's a pretty good reason in itself to view the Soviet Union as the lesser evil in regards to this.
And with the benefits of hindsight, in the long(er)-run, things appear to have worked out relatively well for everyone involved. The US and West got a massively expanded sphere of influence after the end of the Cold War that stretches from Ukraine and Georgia in the East to the Pacific Ocean and Japan/South Korea/Taiwan/the Philippines/Thailand in the West. Eastern Slavs got to keep their traditional homeland, even though they bore the blunt of the Nazi attack and thus their demographics significantly suffered as a result of this. Germany stopped making trouble ever again. Only the Jews got super-fucked over, though even they ultimately got an ethno-state of their own in the form of Israel.
Nazi Germany was nowhere close to getting atomic weapons. They had zero chance of winning WWII, whether they beat the USSR or not. An outcome of the US nuking German cities may very well have been a worse outcome than what happened, but a Nazi victory was simply not in the cards, from the moment Hitler rejected "Jewish Physics". Also, when adding up the death toll of Stalin vs Hitler it's important to note that, had Hitler defeated the USSR, China would not have experienced the hell of Maoism, which cost 40-80 million lives. So while it's almost certainly true that Russia and Eastern Europe were better off with Stalin rather than Hitler as the victor, that may not be true of the world as a whole. Of course, the greatest mistake made by the West was allowing ideologies like Nazism and Communism to attain power in any major country. This may yet prove mortal.
Nazi opposition to "Jewish Physics" precluding it from developing nukes is something of an urban legend, it was just a small clique of ideologues pushing it who did even have official backing from the Nazi establishment. The only real constraint was lack of money/resources (Germany had a much smaller industrial base than the US, and was under vastly greater military pressure). This would have been much less of an issue had Germany "tidied up" the Eastern Front by 1942 or even 1943. The US would still have gotten to the Bomb first, but German AA would be much stronger in this scenario and it would take a while for the US to build up the hundreds of atomics needed to democide Germany into submission (freed from having to channel resources into the Eastern Front, the Allies would not have had uncontested ownership of the skies over Western Europe). Meanwhile, Germany would get its own Bomb around 1947 or 1948, with trans-Channel rocket delivery mechanisms ready to go and trans-Atlantic ones closely following in the pipeline (though the US would get to the B-47, which was invulnerable to 1945-era German AA and fighters, at about the same time). At this point, the ultimate outcome would either be a mounting crescendo of mutual atomic democide, which might have hit Great Britain hardest of all, or a ceasefire to avert that, with German continental hegemony left intact.
Ironically, the "worst" outcome for Germany may have been winning in the East, but only around 1944, instead of 1942. In that case, they'd have too little time to work on AA and nukes, with the result that they get atomically democided in the late 1940s.
This isn't true. The Germans were winning the battle of attrition with the USSR until Operation Bagration. It was a close-run thing as it was, and during the war, something like 40% of total German war production was going to fight the Western Allies (while the Western Allies provided some critical inputs into the USSR's war efforts that it wasn't in a position to produce much of itself, such as high octane fuel and copper cables). One on one match up of Nazi Germany vs. USSR --> USSR gets rekt, probably by 1942, almost certainly by 1943.
Western Europe was occupied by Germans at the time, and western Europe sort of mattered.
They did stop the Soviets by stopping them from going west of Germany, even if they didn't fight them, and even if the Soviets may not have won had America not intervened.
Most of Western Europe and parts of Eastern Europe would have done better under National Socialist rule, but the Eastern Slavs would have had Hell to Pay had the Germans won. The death toll and total dehumanization across Russia under German rule would have made the Shoah look like a picnic. It would have been worse than Spartans lording over Helots and on an infinitely larger scale.
Stalin's mass killings were due to political expediency and what he deemed economic necessity, i.e. Stalin had no particular hatred for any race or group. He was ruthless against any group that he deemed dangerous and threatening. So, Stalin's crimes were temporaneous, whereas Hitler's crimes were rooted in deep-seated ideology. Because of the racial ideology of National Socialism, some groups had little to fear under German rule. Germans admired Anglos and Nordics. They respected Latins. They tolerated the Romanians and Magyars and even some Slavs. But they had sinister designs on Russians and Eastern Slavs. Soviets acted like beastly brutes as they swept westward, pillaging and raping, but it was more an act of revenge than deep-seated hatred. Once the war ended and things normalized, Russians regarded Germans as fellow brothers and sisters. National Socialists would have never extended such recognition to the Russians who would have either been killed en masse or enslaved permanently. This is why Stalinism was preferable to National Socialism. If Hitler only ruled over Western Europe, National Socialism would have done less harm... except to Jews. National Socialism was never as totalitarian as Communism. Also, as it combined capitalism and socialism, it was less radical and more flexible in the socio-economic field. But when Germans conquered the East and ruled over people they deemed as untermensch, things got really dark.
Also, the fact that Eastern Europe is saner today than Western Europe, maybe communism wasn't all that bad and maybe capitalism wasn't all that good. Communist systems were more nationalist, culturally conservative, and emphasized humanism. Capitalist systems became globalist, culturally decadent, and elevated vain idolatry.
Also, capitalism proved to be more dangerous in some ways because Jews thrive more with capitalism than with communism. Though initially Jews played a big role in Bolshevism, they eventually lost out in a system that favored equality over hierarchy. Jews, with their higher IQ, thrive under capitalism and gain dominance, like in the US. They are 2% of the population but control most key industries and institutions. Also, if communism pressured Jews to favor national unity and ideological allegiance over narrow tribalism in the Soviet Union, the freedom in the West allowed Jews to play up their ethnic-supremacist interests while suppressing goy interests. In the US, Jewish supremacists berate whites as 'white supremacists' and demand that whites suppress their own identity/interests and serve Jewish-Zionist-supremacist ones.
“The exact number of German women and girls raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million.”
Stalin killed a lot, but US was created by mass 'genocide' of its native population. And French and British were the biggest imperialists who used force of arms to subjugate much of the world. Japan became an imperial presence in China because US and European powers invited it into the Imperial Club. Capitalism killed millions too. War profiteers manipulated events to blow up entire parts of the world. Consider how the Military Industrial Complex made money from massacres in Korea and Vietnam. And US under Jewish-supremacist rule used foreign policy to wage Wars for Israel that has led to the deaths of 100,000s, possibly a million, Arab/Muslim lives. And the US backed oligarchic tyrants in Latin America who massacred tons of people. None of this is to excuse the crimes of Stalin and Hitler. It is to point out that the 'good guys' also committed lots of crimes by current moral standards.
I haven't read Stalin's War yet (though I have read a couple of McMeekin's books), so I am only going by other people's summaries for the time being. A couple of counter-points that I'd be interested in hearing McMeekin address:
* (1) is correct as of June 1941, but it is incorrect in retrospect. It is highly likely to near certain that a Nazi victory would have been far worse for near everyone east of the Oder to the Sea of Japan than half a century of Communist rule. While I am not much interested in questions of morality as pertains to history, insofar as the argument that McMeekin is making is partly a moral one, this merits a response.
* (2) is outright questionable. A Nazi Germany that controlled all of continental Europe up to the Urals (in reality, probably Siberia and the Soviet Far East too, while it's true that stopping at the Urals was a German rhetorical talking point, in practice there would have been scant reason not to finish the job when they got there since resistance at that point would have been minimal, there's very little population and industry east of the Urals) would have been a vastly more formidable competitor to the Anglo-Americans for world hegemony than a demographically crippled USSR laboring under an absurdly inefficient economic system and substantially reliant on foreign technological imports. Had the Germans defeated the USSR decisively in 1942, there would have been no way that the Western Allies could have ended up defeating it militarily; even had the Germans won in 1943, Western Allied victory would have been entirely dependent on racing to the Bomb and getting there at least a couple of years ahead of the Germans (possibly, but unlikely). Insofar as Anglo-American national interests preclude the emergence of powerful competitors, which in the case of a Nazi Germany hegemon in Eurasia would have posed a vastly greater challenge to them than the USSR, then it seems clear that siding with the USSR tallied perfectly with their national interests (certainly in retrospect, arguably pretty obviously from the perspective of Allied leaders at the time too). They got to squash the more powerful competitor, with 95% of the blood price being paid by the secondary competitor. In that sense, it was an almost absurdly "profitable" exchange.
Agreed with this analysis, and also some additional thoughts: Having Germans be expelled from the territories east of the Oder-Neisse Line was a lesser evil in comparison to having Slavs be expelled from the territories west of the Urals. My educated guess is that only something like 20% of Germans actually lived east of the Oder-Neisse Line whereas the overwhelming majority of Eastern Slavs lived west of the Urals. Eastern Germany did contain some important German cities such as Breslau and Konigsberg, but their loss to Germany would not have been anywhere near as crippling as the loss of the entire European part of the Soviet Union (to Nazi Germany) would have been to the Eastern Slavic peoples. That's a pretty good reason in itself to view the Soviet Union as the lesser evil in regards to this.
And with the benefits of hindsight, in the long(er)-run, things appear to have worked out relatively well for everyone involved. The US and West got a massively expanded sphere of influence after the end of the Cold War that stretches from Ukraine and Georgia in the East to the Pacific Ocean and Japan/South Korea/Taiwan/the Philippines/Thailand in the West. Eastern Slavs got to keep their traditional homeland, even though they bore the blunt of the Nazi attack and thus their demographics significantly suffered as a result of this. Germany stopped making trouble ever again. Only the Jews got super-fucked over, though even they ultimately got an ethno-state of their own in the form of Israel.
Nazi Germany was nowhere close to getting atomic weapons. They had zero chance of winning WWII, whether they beat the USSR or not. An outcome of the US nuking German cities may very well have been a worse outcome than what happened, but a Nazi victory was simply not in the cards, from the moment Hitler rejected "Jewish Physics". Also, when adding up the death toll of Stalin vs Hitler it's important to note that, had Hitler defeated the USSR, China would not have experienced the hell of Maoism, which cost 40-80 million lives. So while it's almost certainly true that Russia and Eastern Europe were better off with Stalin rather than Hitler as the victor, that may not be true of the world as a whole. Of course, the greatest mistake made by the West was allowing ideologies like Nazism and Communism to attain power in any major country. This may yet prove mortal.
Nazi opposition to "Jewish Physics" precluding it from developing nukes is something of an urban legend, it was just a small clique of ideologues pushing it who did even have official backing from the Nazi establishment. The only real constraint was lack of money/resources (Germany had a much smaller industrial base than the US, and was under vastly greater military pressure). This would have been much less of an issue had Germany "tidied up" the Eastern Front by 1942 or even 1943. The US would still have gotten to the Bomb first, but German AA would be much stronger in this scenario and it would take a while for the US to build up the hundreds of atomics needed to democide Germany into submission (freed from having to channel resources into the Eastern Front, the Allies would not have had uncontested ownership of the skies over Western Europe). Meanwhile, Germany would get its own Bomb around 1947 or 1948, with trans-Channel rocket delivery mechanisms ready to go and trans-Atlantic ones closely following in the pipeline (though the US would get to the B-47, which was invulnerable to 1945-era German AA and fighters, at about the same time). At this point, the ultimate outcome would either be a mounting crescendo of mutual atomic democide, which might have hit Great Britain hardest of all, or a ceasefire to avert that, with German continental hegemony left intact.
Ironically, the "worst" outcome for Germany may have been winning in the East, but only around 1944, instead of 1942. In that case, they'd have too little time to work on AA and nukes, with the result that they get atomically democided in the late 1940s.
This isn't true. The Germans were winning the battle of attrition with the USSR until Operation Bagration. It was a close-run thing as it was, and during the war, something like 40% of total German war production was going to fight the Western Allies (while the Western Allies provided some critical inputs into the USSR's war efforts that it wasn't in a position to produce much of itself, such as high octane fuel and copper cables). One on one match up of Nazi Germany vs. USSR --> USSR gets rekt, probably by 1942, almost certainly by 1943.
Western Europe was occupied by Germans at the time, and western Europe sort of mattered.
They did stop the Soviets by stopping them from going west of Germany, even if they didn't fight them, and even if the Soviets may not have won had America not intervened.
Most of Western Europe and parts of Eastern Europe would have done better under National Socialist rule, but the Eastern Slavs would have had Hell to Pay had the Germans won. The death toll and total dehumanization across Russia under German rule would have made the Shoah look like a picnic. It would have been worse than Spartans lording over Helots and on an infinitely larger scale.
Stalin's mass killings were due to political expediency and what he deemed economic necessity, i.e. Stalin had no particular hatred for any race or group. He was ruthless against any group that he deemed dangerous and threatening. So, Stalin's crimes were temporaneous, whereas Hitler's crimes were rooted in deep-seated ideology. Because of the racial ideology of National Socialism, some groups had little to fear under German rule. Germans admired Anglos and Nordics. They respected Latins. They tolerated the Romanians and Magyars and even some Slavs. But they had sinister designs on Russians and Eastern Slavs. Soviets acted like beastly brutes as they swept westward, pillaging and raping, but it was more an act of revenge than deep-seated hatred. Once the war ended and things normalized, Russians regarded Germans as fellow brothers and sisters. National Socialists would have never extended such recognition to the Russians who would have either been killed en masse or enslaved permanently. This is why Stalinism was preferable to National Socialism. If Hitler only ruled over Western Europe, National Socialism would have done less harm... except to Jews. National Socialism was never as totalitarian as Communism. Also, as it combined capitalism and socialism, it was less radical and more flexible in the socio-economic field. But when Germans conquered the East and ruled over people they deemed as untermensch, things got really dark.
Also, the fact that Eastern Europe is saner today than Western Europe, maybe communism wasn't all that bad and maybe capitalism wasn't all that good. Communist systems were more nationalist, culturally conservative, and emphasized humanism. Capitalist systems became globalist, culturally decadent, and elevated vain idolatry.
Also, capitalism proved to be more dangerous in some ways because Jews thrive more with capitalism than with communism. Though initially Jews played a big role in Bolshevism, they eventually lost out in a system that favored equality over hierarchy. Jews, with their higher IQ, thrive under capitalism and gain dominance, like in the US. They are 2% of the population but control most key industries and institutions. Also, if communism pressured Jews to favor national unity and ideological allegiance over narrow tribalism in the Soviet Union, the freedom in the West allowed Jews to play up their ethnic-supremacist interests while suppressing goy interests. In the US, Jewish supremacists berate whites as 'white supremacists' and demand that whites suppress their own identity/interests and serve Jewish-Zionist-supremacist ones.
“The exact number of German women and girls raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany
Stalin killed a lot, but US was created by mass 'genocide' of its native population. And French and British were the biggest imperialists who used force of arms to subjugate much of the world. Japan became an imperial presence in China because US and European powers invited it into the Imperial Club. Capitalism killed millions too. War profiteers manipulated events to blow up entire parts of the world. Consider how the Military Industrial Complex made money from massacres in Korea and Vietnam. And US under Jewish-supremacist rule used foreign policy to wage Wars for Israel that has led to the deaths of 100,000s, possibly a million, Arab/Muslim lives. And the US backed oligarchic tyrants in Latin America who massacred tons of people. None of this is to excuse the crimes of Stalin and Hitler. It is to point out that the 'good guys' also committed lots of crimes by current moral standards.