This seems about right, and the observation about spoilers is apt. Egypt and Jordan are willing to clamp down on diehards and prevent a spoiler effect from their own borders, which is why Israel hasn't fought another war with them in 50 years. Though the fact they won't accept Palestinian refugees or annex Palestine is also why the problem is interminable.
Part of the reason Egypt and Jordan are willing to maintain peace is that they have a corrupt leadership class that's wary of the Islamists and that doesn't want its military wrecked in any more wars, but I imagine another reason is that those countries have an entire life and existence that's independent of Israel. If you're a typical Muslim living in Cairo, sure you hate the Israelis, but you also have the ability to tune them out. They have nothing to do with your daily life or the life of anyone you know. If they disappeared tomorrow, nothing would change. So most of the time, while you're annoyed at your government for not doing more, it's one of many things about your government that annoys you. Not something you're prepared to risk your life over at this moment. In the end, you enjoy living in a stable society.
If you're a Palestinian, Israel isn't something you can ignore, it actually does do things that screw up your life and the lives of people you know, and it's easy to blame all the problems in the world on it. You can't really build a political coalition around anything besides wanting to be rid of Israel, which means that you have limits to how harsh you can be towards people whose only sin is hating Israel more than you.
There's no two-state solution; either Israel one day swallows the Palestinian poison-pill (whether as an act of national murder or suicide) and becomes Lebanon 2.0, or the Palestinians are eventually expelled or annexed into one or more functioning states. Until then, the status quo prevails. Which is livable for Israel, so long as it keeps its guard up.
To be clear, I'm not really as pro-Israel as Richard seems to be these days. It's probably more in the US national interest to try to cultivate better relations with the Arabs and create some distance from Israel. I naturally find the Israelis more sympathetic, but I can sympathize with the Palestinians too.
It's very clear that functioning Arab countries, like UAE, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain etc think in terms of striking down against spoilers. When asked, they are utterly dumbfounded by Western liberal rituals, such as extending Islamist extremist immigrants the courtesy of the benefit of a doubt about their motivations. They think we are insane.
Brilliant analysis. (Caveat: With the exception of the hint that other countries (e.g., the US) should perhaps be willing to volunteer to take in thousands of Gazan refugees. May it never be.)
One could wish that Tony Blinken and Jake Sullivan would pick up the phone and call Richard for advice on such matters. (No one would even have to know.)
The current, oft-repeated, "Western elite" mantra of "we need to find a path to a two-state solution" is as facile as it is fatuous.
I wonder if we could have the Israelis stop the gaslighting and admit they intended to expel Palestinians all along as that is what had to be done to get a state and admit Arabs were perfectly correct to be alarmed and threatened in the 1900-1948 time span, but then also say "just like the Arabs before us in taking out the leftovers of the Byzantines by the same processes, we won and this is the way it is going to be". If the Israelis would just stop the gaslighting and act like Arabs could have done something to avoid being dispossessed (as if the Don't Tread on Me American gun toting crowd wouldn't have acted the same way as Palestinians up to and including the present), I'd be much more amenable to Israeli hawkishness in the present given it is obviously sill to expect modern people to self suicide or self deport regardless of how valid the original Palestinian complaint was. No Americans are like "those violent evil white hating Sioux, what was wrong with them"? We can get that the Sioux were completely sensible in fighting back against the US without any thought that we need to abrogate everything downstream of our ancestors victory. Why can't the Israelis act like this?
I'd identify different problems as the reason why it's so difficult for the Palestinians to make peace. Principles:
1) The people who are supporting the struggle financially and with enthusiasm are largely not the same people who are suffering from the conflict.
It's very hard to end a struggle when so much of the support comes from a diaspora who don't bear the costs of conflict but whose identity is tied into supporting it.
2) Secondary to one, the fact that the material wealth or social status of many Palestinian leaders would be called into question under a peace deal.
3) The continued ambiguity created by western elite's talk about international law regarding what might be achieveable and what is reasonable or fair to accept.
Given your assumptions re Palestinian as a community being able to be peaceable, one could conclude that this is a zero sum game rationalising ethnic cleansing by Israel
I think you're underestimating what a liability Israel is for the United States and the West. NOTHING makes 1.5Billion Muslims more pissed off against the US than Israeli atrocities against Palestinians. Of course, it is heavily influenced by tribal-religious affiliation and antisemitism. It is not strictly rational and they weigh what Israelis do to Palestinians more heavily than what Muslims do to other Muslims. But it's real. It is a giant albatross around the neck of the US. It is unthinkable to me that 9/11 and the War on Terror would've even occurred were it not for decades of US support for Israel.
We spent trillions of dollars on these wars and thousands of US lives. We are currently on the precipice of another regional war that the US is being dragged into, costing us Billions and Billions. At least if we force the issue, force Israel to contract, we will have some moral clarity.
Palestinian extremism can be overcome with intensive social conditioning campaigns, hate speech laws, and counter-extremism surveillance within an inclusive and pluralistic one-state. A two-state solution is a fantasy. A one-state solution implemented over say 50 years is the only humane solution. Jews and Palestinians need to learn to love one another. It will be difficult but many said that about other conflicts.
Why do you single out Palestinan opinions? It's not different from other neighboring countries, so instead of trying to depopulate the whole area, better to relocate Israel in a more favorable environment such as Argentina?
This may be of interest here... linked document at the end...
Israel Shahak was a resident of the Warsaw Ghetto and a survivor of Bergen-Belsen. He arrived in Palestine in 1945 and lived there until his death in 2001. He was an outspoken critic of the state of Israel and a human rights activist. He was also the author of the highly acclaimed Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel (Pluto Press 1999) and Open Secrets: Israeli Nuclear and Foreign Policies (Pluto Press 1997).
Contents:
Foreword by Gore Vidal
1: A Closed Utopia?
2: Prejudice and Prevarication
3: Orthodoxy and Interpretation
4: The Weight of History
5: The Laws against Non-Jews
6: Political Consequences
Notes and References
‘Shahak is an outstanding scholar, with remarkable insight and depth of knowledge. His work is informed and penetrating, a contribution of great value.’
– Noam Chomsky
‘The future of the Palestinian people would have looked much brighter if there had been more Israelis like Shahak ... An outstanding personality.’
– The Jerusalem Times
‘Shahak is a very brave man who should be honored for his services to humanity ... One of the most remarkable individuals in the contemporary Middle East.’
– Edward Said
‘This is a remarkable book ...[It] deserves a wide readership, not only among Jews, but among Christians who seek a fuller understanding both of historical Judaism and of modern-day Israel.’
– Catholic New Times
‘Shahak’s overview of Jewish history is both erudite and readable ... A trail-blazing, double taboo-breaking piece of dynamite.’
– Middle East International
‘Above all, Shahak has the courage to say what most Israelis do not dare to say and definitely do not want to hear ... Remarkable, powerful, and provocative.’
– London Review of Books
‘Anyone who wants to change the Jewish community so that it stops siding with the forces of reaction should read this book.’
– Jewish Socialist
‘Shahak is the latest – if not the last – of the great prophets.’
– Gore Vidal
‘Shahak subjects the whole history of Orthodoxy to a hilarious and scrupulous critique.’
This seems about right, and the observation about spoilers is apt. Egypt and Jordan are willing to clamp down on diehards and prevent a spoiler effect from their own borders, which is why Israel hasn't fought another war with them in 50 years. Though the fact they won't accept Palestinian refugees or annex Palestine is also why the problem is interminable.
Part of the reason Egypt and Jordan are willing to maintain peace is that they have a corrupt leadership class that's wary of the Islamists and that doesn't want its military wrecked in any more wars, but I imagine another reason is that those countries have an entire life and existence that's independent of Israel. If you're a typical Muslim living in Cairo, sure you hate the Israelis, but you also have the ability to tune them out. They have nothing to do with your daily life or the life of anyone you know. If they disappeared tomorrow, nothing would change. So most of the time, while you're annoyed at your government for not doing more, it's one of many things about your government that annoys you. Not something you're prepared to risk your life over at this moment. In the end, you enjoy living in a stable society.
If you're a Palestinian, Israel isn't something you can ignore, it actually does do things that screw up your life and the lives of people you know, and it's easy to blame all the problems in the world on it. You can't really build a political coalition around anything besides wanting to be rid of Israel, which means that you have limits to how harsh you can be towards people whose only sin is hating Israel more than you.
There's no two-state solution; either Israel one day swallows the Palestinian poison-pill (whether as an act of national murder or suicide) and becomes Lebanon 2.0, or the Palestinians are eventually expelled or annexed into one or more functioning states. Until then, the status quo prevails. Which is livable for Israel, so long as it keeps its guard up.
To be clear, I'm not really as pro-Israel as Richard seems to be these days. It's probably more in the US national interest to try to cultivate better relations with the Arabs and create some distance from Israel. I naturally find the Israelis more sympathetic, but I can sympathize with the Palestinians too.
You are clearly an excellent candidate for the role of National Security Advisor in the upcoming Trump administration
It's very clear that functioning Arab countries, like UAE, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain etc think in terms of striking down against spoilers. When asked, they are utterly dumbfounded by Western liberal rituals, such as extending Islamist extremist immigrants the courtesy of the benefit of a doubt about their motivations. They think we are insane.
Brilliant analysis. (Caveat: With the exception of the hint that other countries (e.g., the US) should perhaps be willing to volunteer to take in thousands of Gazan refugees. May it never be.)
One could wish that Tony Blinken and Jake Sullivan would pick up the phone and call Richard for advice on such matters. (No one would even have to know.)
The current, oft-repeated, "Western elite" mantra of "we need to find a path to a two-state solution" is as facile as it is fatuous.
I wonder if we could have the Israelis stop the gaslighting and admit they intended to expel Palestinians all along as that is what had to be done to get a state and admit Arabs were perfectly correct to be alarmed and threatened in the 1900-1948 time span, but then also say "just like the Arabs before us in taking out the leftovers of the Byzantines by the same processes, we won and this is the way it is going to be". If the Israelis would just stop the gaslighting and act like Arabs could have done something to avoid being dispossessed (as if the Don't Tread on Me American gun toting crowd wouldn't have acted the same way as Palestinians up to and including the present), I'd be much more amenable to Israeli hawkishness in the present given it is obviously sill to expect modern people to self suicide or self deport regardless of how valid the original Palestinian complaint was. No Americans are like "those violent evil white hating Sioux, what was wrong with them"? We can get that the Sioux were completely sensible in fighting back against the US without any thought that we need to abrogate everything downstream of our ancestors victory. Why can't the Israelis act like this?
I'd identify different problems as the reason why it's so difficult for the Palestinians to make peace. Principles:
1) The people who are supporting the struggle financially and with enthusiasm are largely not the same people who are suffering from the conflict.
It's very hard to end a struggle when so much of the support comes from a diaspora who don't bear the costs of conflict but whose identity is tied into supporting it.
2) Secondary to one, the fact that the material wealth or social status of many Palestinian leaders would be called into question under a peace deal.
3) The continued ambiguity created by western elite's talk about international law regarding what might be achieveable and what is reasonable or fair to accept.
Given your assumptions re Palestinian as a community being able to be peaceable, one could conclude that this is a zero sum game rationalising ethnic cleansing by Israel
I think you're underestimating what a liability Israel is for the United States and the West. NOTHING makes 1.5Billion Muslims more pissed off against the US than Israeli atrocities against Palestinians. Of course, it is heavily influenced by tribal-religious affiliation and antisemitism. It is not strictly rational and they weigh what Israelis do to Palestinians more heavily than what Muslims do to other Muslims. But it's real. It is a giant albatross around the neck of the US. It is unthinkable to me that 9/11 and the War on Terror would've even occurred were it not for decades of US support for Israel.
We spent trillions of dollars on these wars and thousands of US lives. We are currently on the precipice of another regional war that the US is being dragged into, costing us Billions and Billions. At least if we force the issue, force Israel to contract, we will have some moral clarity.
Palestinian extremism can be overcome with intensive social conditioning campaigns, hate speech laws, and counter-extremism surveillance within an inclusive and pluralistic one-state. A two-state solution is a fantasy. A one-state solution implemented over say 50 years is the only humane solution. Jews and Palestinians need to learn to love one another. It will be difficult but many said that about other conflicts.
Why does a Palestinian Government has to enact War on Palestinians to give Land to Israel? What Land!
Be at least honest and say what you want:
Erez Israel from the River to the Sea!
Stepping in the middle of what is a tribal war is a fool’s errand, especially if both tribes don the mantle of perpetual victimhood.
The one thing that is certain is that victims can become oppressors and oppressors can become victims.
Disgusting article exposing Hanania’s complete lack of self awareness and poor understanding of the history of the region.
Why do you single out Palestinan opinions? It's not different from other neighboring countries, so instead of trying to depopulate the whole area, better to relocate Israel in a more favorable environment such as Argentina?
You're just stating the obvious: of course Israel never and doesn't have a right to exist.
"imminently more sensible" should be "eminently more sensible" unless it's, like, about to become more sensible.
This may be of interest here... linked document at the end...
Israel Shahak was a resident of the Warsaw Ghetto and a survivor of Bergen-Belsen. He arrived in Palestine in 1945 and lived there until his death in 2001. He was an outspoken critic of the state of Israel and a human rights activist. He was also the author of the highly acclaimed Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel (Pluto Press 1999) and Open Secrets: Israeli Nuclear and Foreign Policies (Pluto Press 1997).
Contents:
Foreword by Gore Vidal
1: A Closed Utopia?
2: Prejudice and Prevarication
3: Orthodoxy and Interpretation
4: The Weight of History
5: The Laws against Non-Jews
6: Political Consequences
Notes and References
‘Shahak is an outstanding scholar, with remarkable insight and depth of knowledge. His work is informed and penetrating, a contribution of great value.’
– Noam Chomsky
‘The future of the Palestinian people would have looked much brighter if there had been more Israelis like Shahak ... An outstanding personality.’
– The Jerusalem Times
‘Shahak is a very brave man who should be honored for his services to humanity ... One of the most remarkable individuals in the contemporary Middle East.’
– Edward Said
‘This is a remarkable book ...[It] deserves a wide readership, not only among Jews, but among Christians who seek a fuller understanding both of historical Judaism and of modern-day Israel.’
– Catholic New Times
‘Shahak’s overview of Jewish history is both erudite and readable ... A trail-blazing, double taboo-breaking piece of dynamite.’
– Middle East International
‘Above all, Shahak has the courage to say what most Israelis do not dare to say and definitely do not want to hear ... Remarkable, powerful, and provocative.’
– London Review of Books
‘Anyone who wants to change the Jewish community so that it stops siding with the forces of reaction should read this book.’
– Jewish Socialist
‘Shahak is the latest – if not the last – of the great prophets.’
– Gore Vidal
‘Shahak subjects the whole history of Orthodoxy to a hilarious and scrupulous critique.’
– The Nation
*
Professor Israel Shahak
Pluto Press (2002)
Foreword to the first printing
by Gore Vidal
Sometime in the late 1950s....
Jewish History, Jewish Religion:
The Weight of Three Thousand Years
https://ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/shahak.html