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Glenbatrick's avatar

As a Western male who speaks Korean, has lived in Korea, and is married to a Korean, I have puzzled over this topic at length and find your arguments quite persuasive--sometimes an outside perspective is useful!

I can also tell you that an obsession over penis size seems to be quite prevalent among Korean men: public bath houses / saunas (clean--no hanky-panky!) are common in Korea, and unlike in Scandinavia where no one gives a damn, some Korean men will visibly "check out" foreigners and even make comments about our genitalia (assuming we don't speak the language, natch). I've even been in conversations with groups of Korean men discussing black dudes' dicks. It's truly bizarre to me, and long pre-dates the finger-pinching movement--at least the 20 years that I've been in / around the country.

I have always thought that there is a glaring lack of traditional male role models; while Korean culture does have its share of masculine archetypes (warriors, generals, etc.), it venerates "scholars" (e.g., the yangban) to a much greater degree than even neighboring Asian countries.

And, while Korean pop culture certainly does have some traditional manly male stars, the vast majority are typified by the softbois / soybois of BTS, who look and present themselves as having taken a wrong turn on the way to a Harry Styles convention. Don't get me wrong, Bowie and Prince are awesome, and if eyeliner is your thing, you do you--but this archetype seems disproportionately represented in Korean pop culture. (And, to be clear, this pre-dates BTS, they've just turned it up to an 11.)

I will also say that violence against women short of murder remains quite prevalent in Korean culture, and is to an extent even normalized: Korean men "romantically" throwing women against walls or "passionately" hitting walls next to a woman is a recurring trope in Korean media.

Apart from that, domestic violence, revenge porn, spy cams, date rape, stalking, aggressive verbal assaults (not "you hurt my feelings" but screaming in women's faces to harass and intimidate), and violent threats are depressingly common--and while laws and enforcement have improved somewhat in recent years (which I think also contributes to some men's persecution complexes!), Korean police are generally apathetic about these things and make little effort to deter or punish them. Add to that fairly continuous, low-grade sexual harassment and stifling pressure to conform to a narrow feminine norm, and being a woman in Korea is often straight up no fun, yo.

Unfortunately, data on this type of lower grade violence is invariably hard to come by and low quality--but as the husband of an educated, professionally accomplished Korean woman, I can attest that it is very real, and one if not several orders of magnitude worse than what women in the U.S. or Western Europe (or even China or Japan) normally have to contend with.

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KL's avatar
6hEdited

I think you’ve correctly identified the main reason South Korea is different from China and Japan. Western influence, ie feminism in this case, is significant in South Korea, but much less in China and Japan.

Part of it is that they’re both bigger countries than South Korea. Part of it is that both China and Japan have a much deeper history and culture to draw from. But crucially I feel like Chinese and Japanese elites are just much more grounded in their civilizations and thus act as gatekeepers against foreign influence.

Because Korea is a small country and sandwiched between China and Japan, Korean elite have historically not had the privilege of being as parochial as the elites of China and Japan. In ancient times, Korean elites strove to pass China’s imperial exam and become Confucian scholars. When Japan occupied Korea, the Korean elite sent their sons to be educated in Japan. Since the end of WW2, the Korean elite send their children to the US and Britain in huge numbers, much more so than the elite families of China and Japan.

I think the problem is that there are two competing tensions in South Korea right now. South Korea has adopted much of the formal apparatus of the western world including that which has allowed feminism to take root, including gender equality laws, free speech of feminists, universal suffrage, etc. But social relations, governed by norms and not laws, remain Confucian.

Confucian ideology is your typical conservative ideology: respect your elders, children should obey their parents, wives should obey their husband, men are superior to women, etc. Of course, this runs against gender equality.

I think what’s happened in Korea is that these two competing ideologies of feminism and Confucianism have broken down by gender lines, predictably based on which ideology is more beneficial to their gender. Young Korean women lean into feminism. Young Korean men lean into Confucianism.

One of the admirable traits of Koreans is that they take everything to an extreme. Korean-Americans assimilate more than Chinese-Americans or Japanese-Americans. This is most striking when you look at military enlistment. Similarly, Koreans pride themselves on being even more Confucian than the Chinese.

So you’ve got rabid young Korean women feminists. And you’ve got rabid young Korean male Confucianists. It’s not surprising you’ve got extreme polarization.

Interestingly, you’d think feminism would be a bigger problem in China because female equality is ostensibly a core feature of communism. Or be a bigger problem in Japan because the de facto situation for women is worse in Japan than Korea. And both countries also have the same conservative/Confucian attitudes towards social relations which is in conflict with gender equality. But to circle back to an earlier point, it just feels like the Chinese and Japanese elites have not allowed feminism to gain much momentum. It really does seem to be a case of “patriots in control” lol (if you see it from that perspective).

Anyways, I think the phenomenon of South Korean men being whiny, is actually a result of South Korean elections being raucous and free affairs. Elections matter, as seen by the previous president who won with the help of the male incel vote. I think one of the unfortunate side effects of democracy is that it makes everyone a whiny activist. You see it in MAGA too these days. You don’t see this whining in China or Japan because both populations are politically apathetic. China for obvious reasons. Japan because it’s basically a one party state as well. Although the recent rise of the far right party has shaken things up a little.

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